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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 71
03-14-2012, 08:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
lol, second paragraph does "During the firing sequence of some shipmounted arrays, phaser energies would travel along the emitter strip and converge at the best position for targeting. (Star Trek: The Next Generation)"

also you see it happen on screen. memory alpha only has observed information on it, the lack of information on it doesn't mean im wrong. with the lack of canon information, i turned to the technical manual and read what it says. a simple version of the conclusion i reached is what i posted last post.



in my first post in this debate i gave examples of other ships killing the same ships the defiant had killed, only they were killing them more easily.



sure, no argument.



a pulse cannon emitter is surely superior to a phaser array emitter, but they do 2 different things. array emitters work together in the arrays, there can be 10 to 200 of them depending on the array size. cannon emitters are single gun barrels basically, they better emit more energy then an array emitter.



the defiant was not designed to solo a cube, and that's what your implying. the strategy behind this 'fight the borg' thing is to throw 100 defiant at a cube rater then 50 large expensive general purpose ships. the result would be about the same firepower at half the cost in resources and manpower.
1. Observed information, which I'm assuming you mean what is seen on screen, is considered canon. Technical manuals/guides are not. Even says so here: http://www.stardestroyer.net/mrwong/...arship_phasers

2. They have shown one on one battles with the Defiant, not just fleet actions. In those battles, the Defiant took them out in a single volley. Wish I could refer to the video I posted earlier, but it seems like it was removed.

3. I have not seen any references that said the Defiant-class ships were meant to be cannon fodder to the Borg. Do you have any info on where you got that information?

4. Going back to your comments about the warp drive, it is a Class 7 warp drive. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Class-7_warp_drive

They mention that: "Though never stated on screen, it is possible that the multi-lobe injectors were indicative of the "multiple reactant stream injection" technology Starfleet had under development years previous as referenced by Geordi La Forge in 'Galaxy's Child'. The feature was scheduled to be included in the 'next class starship'. "

Possibly one of the most advanced warp drives before Class 9 drives were installed on the Voyager. If we're going to use technical manuals as references, the DS9 technical manual said the theorized maximum warp speed was 9.982 for 12 hours. But, that's not canon.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 72
03-14-2012, 09:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mephihsto View Post
The only time I recall a BOP being any near a threat to a modern cruiser is in Star Trek: Generations *after* they had discovered their shield frequency and bypassed them all together. Regardless of the age of their BOP, what one of the Duras sisters said holds very true "They are a Galaxy-Class starship we are no match for them." No escort class ship in Star Trek has EVER killed a large, modern cruiser (on its own) in less than 3 seconds, not even the Duras sisters when they could completely bypass their shields! For sake of balance in an MMO however, some things just can't follow canon 100%
Who said anything about killing a modern cruiser in 3 seconds?

My point is that, just because they are smaller ships, does not mean they don't pose a threat if the weapon technology and Captain/crew ability is good enough.

You could watch all of the DS9 fleet actions, but as we said before, no one in those battles appeared to have shields. Which wouldn't make sense for ships in the back of the fleet to have received volley fire.

As for examples of smaller ships being a threat to a modern cruiser:
1) Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country - took both the Enterprise and the Excelsior to take out one BoP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg58h...feature=relmfu
During that era, the BoPs were always considered to be outgunned by modern cruisers. Yet, in one on one battles, they have managed to hold their own.
2) DS9: Return to Grace episode - A single BoP was able to take out a Cardassian outpost.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Klingon_Bird-of-Prey
3) DS9: Defiant episode - The Defiant, under the command of Thomas Riker, was able to take out Cardassian cruiser (such as upgraded Keldon-class).
http://www.stardestroyer.net/mrwong/.../Defiant-class

FYI, the reason why we're rehashing the same arguments, is because I'm actually providing some sort of documentation that is contrary to what he is saying. He is providing his own opinion or referring to a technical guide (both of which are not canon).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 73
03-14-2012, 01:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
1. Observed information, which I'm assuming you mean what is seen on screen, is considered canon. Technical manuals/guides are not. Even says so here: http://www.stardestroyer.net/mrwong/...arship_phasers
in the absence of any canon information one way or the other, soft canon tech manuals are the next best thing. my conclusions on how phaser arrays work fits the visuals, and doesn't violate canon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
2. They have shown one on one battles with the Defiant, not just fleet actions. In those battles, the Defiant took them out in a single volley. Wish I could refer to the video I posted earlier, but it seems like it was removed.
other ships have done basically the same thing, or done it quicker. bug ships and bops explode from 1 hit all the time, that's their purpose on screen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
3. I have not seen any references that said the Defiant-class ships were meant to be cannon fodder to the Borg. Do you have any info on where you got that information?
what else could it be? its small, heavily armed, and more expendable then larger ships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
4. Going back to your comments about the warp drive, it is a Class 7 warp drive. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Class-7_warp_drive

They mention that: "Though never stated on screen, it is possible that the multi-lobe injectors were indicative of the "multiple reactant stream injection" technology Starfleet had under development years previous as referenced by Geordi La Forge in 'Galaxy's Child'. The feature was scheduled to be included in the 'next class starship'. "

Possibly one of the most advanced warp drives before Class 9 drives were installed on the Voyager. If we're going to use technical manuals as references, the DS9 technical manual said the theorized maximum warp speed was 9.982 for 12 hours. But, that's not canon.
the defient's warp core is 2-3 decks high, a galaxy class's is 12 decks high. not sure what all the height is for, but 1 is a hell of a lot bigger then the other. if you want to go quoting memory alpha, i will too

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Galaxy_class "The warp core was one of the most powerful in Starfleet, generating approximately 12.75 billion gigawatts of power. (TNG: "True Q") The efficiency of the warp drive could be tweaked to a point where it rivaled the new Intrepid-class ships introduced in 2370. (TNG: "Force of Nature")"

the maximum speed has more to do with the nacelles and warp coils, the core is just a big power source, it isn't the limiting factor on speed. except in the case of the equinox, that twig they call a warp core it had was likely the limiting factor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
Who said anything about killing a modern cruiser in 3 seconds?

My point is that, just because they are smaller ships, does not mean they don't pose a threat if the weapon technology and Captain/crew ability is good enough.

You could watch all of the DS9 fleet actions, but as we said before, no one in those battles appeared to have shields. Which wouldn't make sense for ships in the back of the fleet to have received volley fire.

As for examples of smaller ships being a threat to a modern cruiser:
1) Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country - took both the Enterprise and the Excelsior to take out one BoP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg58h...feature=relmfu
During that era, the BoPs were always considered to be outgunned by modern cruisers. Yet, in one on one battles, they have managed to hold their own.
that bop had a haxzor cloak, it got blown apart after it was defeated. the bop at that time was more of a threat to the cruisers of that era, the connie refit was only 6 times larger then a bop. during tng that same size of bop was 144 ties smaller then a galaxy class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
2) DS9: Return to Grace episode - A single BoP was able to take out a Cardassian outpost.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Klingon_Bird-of-Prey
i believe that was a planetary outpost? whatever it was its defenses and weapons were proboly nothing compared to an actual statship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
3) DS9: Defiant episode - The Defiant, under the command of Thomas Riker, was able to take out Cardassian cruiser (such as upgraded Keldon-class).
http://www.stardestroyer.net/mrwong/.../Defiant-class
it didn't get any kills in those instances, but it did disable some ships. cardassian ships are considered inferior to federation ships of similar size, but they stood up pretty well to "phaser cannon fire and six quantum torpedoes." http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Keldon_class

heres some more documentation for you on that, this isn't just my opinion.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Cardassian "In 2367, Cardassian technology was notably inferior to that of the Federation. A Cardassian warship was easily destroyed by the USS Phoenix, even when the warship had the ability to penetrate the Phoenix's shields. Cardassians on board the USS Enterprise-D made several comments about the superiority of Federation technology, notably the ship's transporter technology, as well as the vessel's sensors, which were able to detect the classification of Cardassian ships at long ranges, an ability that Cardassian sensors did not have."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
FYI, the reason why we're rehashing the same arguments, is because I'm actually providing some sort of documentation that is contrary to what he is saying. He is providing his own opinion or referring to a technical guide (both of which are not canon).
you post documentation, that is really grasping for straws now, interpret it in a bias way to try to prove your points, and then i shoot holes in your evidence and submit a little common sense were there is no solid information ether way. the defiant may be sisko's pimp hand, but it does not outgun heavy cruisers and battleships
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 74
03-14-2012, 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
in the absence of any canon information one way or the other, soft canon tech manuals are the next best thing. my conclusions on how phaser arrays work fits the visuals, and doesn't violate canon
You claimed that the energy moving down the emitter increased its power. I'll repost your comment
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
i get the impression because i know the trek science behind how phasers work. with arrays, the longer they are, the more individual emitters they have. each emitter holds its own charge, and the more emitters that are used in a beam discharge, the more powerful the beam can be. thats that moving energy effect you see in the shows along the array, each emitter's energy is being gathered at the firing point. the large dorsal array on a galaxy class has 200 emitters
What is visibly observed is that energy travels down the array from opposing directions, converges, and fires on it's target.

Unless stated otherwise in the movies or series, it's non-canon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
that bop had a haxzor cloak, it got blown apart after it was defeated. the bop at that time was more of a threat to the cruisers of that era, the connie refit was only 6 times larger then a bop. during tng that same size of bop was 144 ties smaller then a galaxy class.
Which was why I had said that weapons and Captain make the difference.

Or, are you going to say that firing torpedoes while cloaked isn't for offensive purposes?

Even if the Constitution-class ship was only 6 times larger than a BoP, the Excelsior was also present.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
i believe that was a planetary outpost? whatever it was its defenses and weapons were proboly nothing compared to an actual statship.
The outpost was planetary, this is true. But the weapon was powerful enough to disable the same BoP that attacked the outpost in one shot when it was shoved into a freighter cargo bay. Yeah, the BoP had it's shields down, but that's their fault for being so cocky.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
it didn't get any kills in those instances, but it did disable some ships. cardassian ships are considered inferior to federation ships of similar size, but they stood up pretty well to "phaser cannon fire and six quantum torpedoes." http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Keldon_class

heres some more documentation for you on that, this isn't just my opinion.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Cardassian "In 2367, Cardassian technology was notably inferior to that of the Federation. A Cardassian warship was easily destroyed by the USS Phoenix, even when the warship had the ability to penetrate the Phoenix's shields. Cardassians on board the USS Enterprise-D made several comments about the superiority of Federation technology, notably the ship's transporter technology, as well as the vessel's sensors, which were able to detect the classification of Cardassian ships at long ranges, an ability that Cardassian sensors did not have."
1) In that episode, it was up against, initially 3 Keldon-Class ships that were heavily upgraded by the Obsidian Order. After one of the ships was disabled, another 3 came in. 6 on 1.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Defiant_%28episode%29
From your link on the Keldon-class ships:
"Built jointly with the Romulan Tal Shiar, these Keldon-class warships were fitted with cloaking devices, enhanced top speeds and weaponry"http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Keldon_class
2) The Keldon-class ships were build in the 2370s. Prior to that, yes, the Galor-class ships were inferior.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
other ships have done basically the same thing, or done it quicker. bug ships and bops explode from 1 hit all the time, that's their purpose on screen.
I will concede this point. But, unshielded, they did way more damage to a Breen cruiser than an array could do in one shot. Also, firing that many quantum torpedoes Breen kill either means a) quantum torpedoes are weak, b) overkill shot, c) canon, but not. Fleet actions seem to make canon a murky area. I suppose it's in the best interest of eye-candy to have a ship blown up by one torpedo, or take severe damage from 4+ torpedo shots. It's been like that from the series through the movies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
what else could it be? its small, heavily armed, and more expendable then larger ships.
Comparing a warship to a cruiser is like comparing a submarine to a luxury cruise. The Defiant is meant to do away with individual crew quarters and recreational/science spaces. It sacrifices all of that for smaller profile and maneuverability. If you take all of that stuff out of a cruiser, I'm sure you could drastically reduce the size of the ship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
the defient's warp core is 2-3 decks high, a galaxy class's is 12 decks high. not sure what all the height is for, but 1 is a hell of a lot bigger then the other. if you want to go quoting memory alpha, i will too

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Galaxy_class "The warp core was one of the most powerful in Starfleet, generating approximately 12.75 billion gigawatts of power. (TNG: "True Q") The efficiency of the warp drive could be tweaked to a point where it rivaled the new Intrepid-class ships introduced in 2370. (TNG: "Force of Nature")"

the maximum speed has more to do with the nacelles and warp coils, the core is just a big power source, it isn't the limiting factor on speed. except in the case of the equinox, that twig they call a warp core it had was likely the limiting factor.
Operative word: "was". Yeah, La Forge is a genius, but he was really only motivated by rivalry with the Chief Engineer on the USS Intrepid. And, that was more of a competition for power efficiency. Not power generated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
you post documentation, that is really grasping for straws now, interpret it in a bias way to try to prove your points, and then i shoot holes in your evidence and submit a little common sense were there is no solid information ether way. the defiant may be sisko's pimp hand, but it does not outgun heavy cruisers and battleships
Showing documentation of canon to justify my reasoning versus relying on memory, non-canon technical manuals, and personal opinion. And you say that I'm the one grasping at straws?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 75
03-14-2012, 08:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
You claimed that the energy moving down the emitter increased its power. I'll repost your comment

What is visibly observed is that energy travels down the array from opposing directions, converges, and fires on it's target.

Unless stated otherwise in the movies or series, it's non-canon.
unless someday we get an episode that sits the character down in a class room and walk through how they work there will never be a true canon explanation for them. the best we have is the tech manual that was written by those that worked on the show. it doesn't get closer then that to canon. i prefer a soft canon explanation to no explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
The outpost was planetary, this is true. But the weapon was powerful enough to disable the same BoP that attacked the outpost in one shot when it was shoved into a freighter cargo bay. Yeah, the BoP had it's shields down, but that's their fault for being so cocky.
thats why it was able to destroy the outpost, the weapons were harmless to it. it had to fly in to point blank range, lower its shields, tap on its chin, and get sucker punched to be harmed by it. and it didn't even destroy the ship, ducat captured and repaired it and used it until he joined the dominian

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
1) In that episode, it was up against, initially 3 Keldon-Class ships that were heavily upgraded by the Obsidian Order. After one of the ships was disabled, another 3 came in. 6 on 1.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Defiant_%28episode%29
From your link on the Keldon-class ships:
"Built jointly with the Romulan Tal Shiar, these Keldon-class warships were fitted with cloaking devices, enhanced top speeds and weaponry"http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Keldon_class
2) The Keldon-class ships were build in the 2370s. Prior to that, yes, the Galor-class ships were inferior.
heavily upgraded is a stretch, nothing of the sort is stated. this is something that is assumed by whoever made that entry in memory alpha. its a valid assumption but not a strictly canon assumption. one can assume that they are better then galors, they have the additional nacelle wings in the rear of the ship, and the additional section on top. i doubt the Tal Shiar did much more then give them cloaks, these were needed on all ships for the operation. i doubt the romulans are going to be to generous with anything else.

i remember the episode, it stopped firing when the other ships showed up, it just fired on 1 keldorn. i'd have to fire up the episode to be sure, but i think it encountered 1 keldorn and blasted it, and 3 more decloaked as a galor caught up to the defiant, that's the one it surrendered to. there were like 10 more galors on the way too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
I will concede this point. But, unshielded, they did way more damage to a Breen cruiser than an array could do in one shot. Also, firing that many quantum torpedoes Breen kill either means a) quantum torpedoes are weak, b) overkill shot, c) canon, but not. Fleet actions seem to make canon a murky area. I suppose it's in the best interest of eye-candy to have a ship blown up by one torpedo, or take severe damage from 4+ torpedo shots. It's been like that from the series through the movies.
its hard to judge these thing really, the vfx just had to look cool more thean anything else. i prefer judging ships on the sum of their parts rather then inconsistent incidents, writing, and battles. after i define their parts i make my appraisal of where ships stand in relation to each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
Comparing a warship to a cruiser is like comparing a submarine to a luxury cruise. The Defiant is meant to do away with individual crew quarters and recreational/science spaces. It sacrifices all of that for smaller profile and maneuverability. If you take all of that stuff out of a cruiser, I'm sure you could drastically reduce the size of the ship.
its more like comparing a destroyer to a battleship actually. how comfortable the battleship is does not diminish the caliber of the battleships guns. the galaxy class can function with 60% of its hull empty, according to the ds9 tech manual. if the galaxy was nothing but critical systems and spartan accommodation and only 40% of its size would it be as powerful as a full size galaxy? not necessarily, if the galaxy's saucer wasn't so large it wouldn't have such large phaser arrays or so much additional volume that can soak up damage. a penetrating hit on the defiant will always destroy something critical because its so compact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
Operative word: "was". Yeah, La Forge is a genius, but he was really only motivated by rivalry with the Chief Engineer on the USS Intrepid. And, that was more of a competition for power efficiency. Not power generated.
the memory alpha quote happened to say the enterprise's warp core is the most powerful in service, for what its worth. power output and efficiency are mutually exclusive things, cores can be less powerful but more efficient, and less efficient but more powerful. every new thing that is labeled most advanced in star trek doesn't automatically make it the most powerful. that's a notion to many people cling to over a logic appraisal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
Showing documentation of canon to justify my reasoning versus relying on memory, non-canon technical manuals, and personal opinion. And you say that I'm the one grasping at straws?
i've posted plenty of links too backing up what i have said. on this subject, 1 minute your 100% stanch canon is canon and that's it, the next your saying well those fleet actions i don't know about them. my position is consistently been if there is a lack of hard canon, soft canon is the next best thing for filling in the gaps.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 76
03-14-2012, 10:56 PM
What's the word on this situation?

Do Tactical consoles stack? Any Tactical console? (I saw they're addressing Quantum Torp consoles not stacking, meaning they'll fix them so they will?)

What about all other Tactical consoles?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 77
03-14-2012, 11:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArykGrev View Post
What's the word on this situation?

Do Tactical consoles stack? Any Tactical console? (I saw they're addressing Quantum Torp consoles not stacking, meaning they'll fix them so they will?)

What about all other Tactical consoles?
its kind of up in the air right now, they thought they had it figured out, but maybe not. go log onto tribble and see if they stack, that's got the most up to date build right now
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 78
03-15-2012, 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
unless someday we get an episode that sits the character down in a class room and walk through how they work there will never be a true canon explanation for them. the best we have is the tech manual that was written by those that worked on the show. it doesn't get closer then that to canon. i prefer a soft canon explanation to no explanation.
Okay, well according to the Star Trek: Starship Spotter photo technical guide, which was worked on by folks who worked on Voyager, the Defiant had mark XII phaser cannons (while the Prometheus and Sovereign have mark XII arrays). Galaxy, Akira, Intrepid, Sabre, and Nebula (as well as more TNG era star ships) had mark X. DS9 had mark XI.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Phaser
But, it's still not canon unless it's on said on TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
thats why it was able to destroy the outpost, the weapons were harmless to it. it had to fly in to point blank range, lower its shields, tap on its chin, and get sucker punched to be harmed by it. and it didn't even destroy the ship, ducat captured and repaired it and used it until he joined the dominian
Considering the feighter's in-ability to penetrate the hull of the BoP, and the fact that the disruptor nearly blew the ship apart during test firing, they only had one shot. Firing it against a shielded opponent would have been suicide. The beam was powerful enough to breach the hull and disable the engines in one shot. Enough of those disruptors could have been a threat to a BoP.




Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
heavily upgraded is a stretch, nothing of the sort is stated. this is something that is assumed by whoever made that entry in memory alpha. its a valid assumption but not a strictly canon assumption. one can assume that they are better then galors, they have the additional nacelle wings in the rear of the ship, and the additional section on top. i doubt the Tal Shiar did much more then give them cloaks, these were needed on all ships for the operation. i doubt the romulans are going to be to generous with anything else.

i remember the episode, it stopped firing when the other ships showed up, it just fired on 1 keldorn. i'd have to fire up the episode to be sure, but i think it encountered 1 keldorn and blasted it, and 3 more decloaked as a galor caught up to the defiant, that's the one it surrendered to. there were like 10 more galors on the way too.
I watched the episode again, as I hadn't seen that episode since it was originally aired. Keldon had shields, and the phaser cannons penetrated it in one volley. Keldon fired back a few times. Defiant turned around and fired 4 quantum torps. First 2 quantum torps missed, but did exploded with enough force to slightly move the ship. The 2nd torp volley hit the tail end and disabled the ship. The Defiant was about to run and continue their mission when they got hailed by Dukat and Sisko.

When the Defiant was running back to the closest Galor-class ship to surrender, it was being pursued by the remaining 2 Keldon-class ships. During that pursuit, Dukat notes that those were the fastest Keldon's he's ever seen and questioned what was going on in that Obsidian Order controlled space. Since it was established later that the Tal Shiar was involved with the Obisidian Order, it would appear that the Keldon's received much more than a cloaking device.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
its more like comparing a destroyer to a battleship actually. how comfortable the battleship is does not diminish the caliber of the battleships guns. the galaxy class can function with 60% of its hull empty, according to the ds9 tech manual. if the galaxy was nothing but critical systems and spartan accommodation and only 40% of its size would it be as powerful as a full size galaxy? not necessarily, if the galaxy's saucer wasn't so large it wouldn't have such large phaser arrays or so much additional volume that can soak up damage. a penetrating hit on the defiant will always destroy something critical because its so compact.
Yes, the size give it an advantage is the amount of damage it can take (referencing Star Trek: Generations). But, at that cost of maneuverability and smaller profile. The Galaxy-class ship is meant for exploration. Obviously, it is designed to protect it's self and it's 1000 passengers. However, it is not a designated escort/warship.

The Defiant-class is built to fight. Nothing else. If they wanted canon fodder, they would send in Mirandas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
i've posted plenty of links too backing up what i have said. on this subject, 1 minute your 100% stanch canon is canon and that's it, the next your saying well those fleet actions i don't know about them. my position is consistently been if there is a lack of hard canon, soft canon is the next best thing for filling in the gaps.
My point has always been that what is seen on TV or the movies is canon. Even if the canon doesn't make sense. The problem with having a multiple TV shows around the same period of time, is that you are bound to have contradictions. For instance, sometimes a single, simple photon torpedo can destroy a ship in one shot. Sometimes it takes a lot. It really all comes down to entertainment value. One on one battles can make for an exciting battle. Not so much in fleet actions when there's hundreds of ships involved.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 79
03-15-2012, 08:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
Okay, well according to the Star Trek: Starship Spotter photo technical guide, which was worked on by folks who worked on Voyager, the Defiant had mark XII phaser cannons (while the Prometheus and Sovereign have mark XII arrays). Galaxy, Akira, Intrepid, Sabre, and Nebula (as well as more TNG era star ships) had mark X. DS9 had mark XI.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Phaser
But, it's still not canon unless it's on said on TV.
i accept those sources of information. soft canon filling in the holes in hard canon. and yes the emitter marks of those ships im aware of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
I watched the episode again, as I hadn't seen that episode since it was originally aired. Keldon had shields, and the phaser cannons penetrated it in one volley. Keldon fired back a few times. Defiant turned around and fired 4 quantum torps. First 2 quantum torps missed, but did exploded with enough force to slightly move the ship. The 2nd torp volley hit the tail end and disabled the ship. The Defiant was about to run and continue their mission when they got hailed by Dukat and Sisko.
ah. memory alpha specifically mentioned 6 quantums for some reason. if a nebula class could destroy a galor in 1 volley, like it did in the episode The Wounded, it could proboly destroy a keldorn in a volley and a half.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
When the Defiant was running back to the closest Galor-class ship to surrender, it was being pursued by the remaining 2 Keldon-class ships. During that pursuit, Dukat notes that those were the fastest Keldon's he's ever seen and questioned what was going on in that Obsidian Order controlled space. Since it was established later that the Tal Shiar was involved with the Obisidian Order, it would appear that the Keldon's received much more than a cloaking device.
romulans arent know for their high warp speeds, till nemisis, but a year or 2 earlier a warbird practically destroyed its engines to keep up with the enterprise D in the episode tin man. they were beefed up cardasian ships, but that's all we know for sure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
Yes, the size give it an advantage is the amount of damage it can take (referencing Star Trek: Generations). But, at that cost of maneuverability and smaller profile. The Galaxy-class ship is meant for exploration. Obviously, it is designed to protect it's self and it's 1000 passengers. However, it is not a designated escort/warship.

The Defiant-class is built to fight. Nothing else. If they wanted canon fodder, they would send in Mirandas.
cannon fodder and expendable are not the right words. they are simply a more cost effective way to deal with an enemy that's nearly impossible to stop conventionally. or any other enemy. if the federation was more war like the majority of their starfleet would be made up of defiants, like the klingons with their BOPs or the dominion with their bug ships. instead they have mostly larger multi purpose ships, with few or no small attack ships. the dominan and klingons have the right idea for waging war, the federation was going to copy it using the defiant against the borg.

the galaxy actually maneuvers quite well, we see it from a full stop do a180 and go to warp in about 3 seconds in a ton of episodes. but it doesn't really need maneuverability in a fight, unless its trying to put itself between another ship like in yesterdays enterprise. the great thing about arrays is that they can fire their strongest shots anywhere they have line of sight, nearly 360 degrees. the torpedoes are tracking weapons too, regardless of the direction they point when fired they can maneuver to hit their target. ships that use cannons need maneuverability to line up their near arc-less gun barrels.

from all the hard and soft canon information i can find, it seems the galaxy class was designed to do everything, with so much of its interior modular it can be refit to serve as a science vessel or a warship. during its design phase the federation was involved in at least 3 wars, the tzenkethi, tholian and cardasian, that one was still going on till about the 4th season of tng. this notion that the galaxy was designed during peace time thing is incorrect. sisko mentions serving during the last tzenkethi war, riker's dad was the only survivor of a starbase destroyed during a tholian war, and the cardasian war ending with the creation of the dmz. it likely ended when the federation started fielding galaxy and nebula class and started stomping cardasian mudholes with them. something the enterprise D just didn't take part of, it seemed to hang out along the romulan border mostly in the early seasons.

the enterprise D is all the federation's ideals in ship form, were crews and their families live in luxury as they explore and make science and whatever, its a gilded flagship. theres no reason to believe every galaxy was like that, the ds9 tech manual says they weren't during the dominian war, most of the modular space was left empty. by then the production staff were commenting on how stupid it was to have the ship full of children, and how they wanted to phase out all that carebear stuff. they were making the star trek universe more dark and the galaxy class in the form we know looks absurd in that universe. given all that, i think the D was more of a one off, and during and after the dominian war the general galaxy was a much different ship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
My point has always been that what is seen on TV or the movies is canon. Even if the canon doesn't make sense. The problem with having a multiple TV shows around the same period of time, is that you are bound to have contradictions. For instance, sometimes a single, simple photon torpedo can destroy a ship in one shot. Sometimes it takes a lot. It really all comes down to entertainment value. One on one battles can make for an exciting battle. Not so much in fleet actions when there's hundreds of ships involved.
yes i remember in early tng riker warned that if they fired a single torpedo at such a close target it could destroy the enterprise. lolwut?
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