Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 51
03-18-2012, 09:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by danqueller
It seems obvious from the dialogue that it was understood that having the Lakota use its quantumn torpedoes would destroy the Defiant without question
The Defiant was hit by torpedoes on other occasions, and was not destroyed "without question". It's true that, given its size, it's not going to take as many high-powered weapon hits to destroy the Defiant as it would other, larger ships... but at the same time, the Defiant is built compact and heavily armored, without inherent hull weaknesses that you get from having windows all over it like a Galaxy does. It's a very tough ship for its size, not a flimsy wet tissue.

It's also a universally acknowledged fact in canon that the Defiant has the most firepower of any Federation ship at the time of its first deployment. Honestly, with the number of times something to that effect is said on screen (even by Gul Dukat at one point) it's amazing people still doubt it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 52
03-18-2012, 09:42 AM
Quote:
The Defiant was hit by torpedoes on other occasions, and was not destroyed "without question". It's true that, given its size, it's not going to take as many high-powered weapon hits to destroy the Defiant as it would other, larger ships... but at the same time, the Defiant is built compact and heavily armored, without inherent hull weaknesses that you get from having windows all over it like a Galaxy does. It's a very tough ship for its size, not a flimsy wet tissue.

It's also a universally acknowledged fact in canon that the Defiant has the most firepower of any Federation ship at the time of its first deployment. Honestly, with the number of times something to that effect is said on screen (even by Gul Dukat at one point) it's amazing people still doubt it.
In the Lakota battle Sisko clearly states that if the Admiral allows the Lakota to use its Quantums on the Defiant it would be destroyed. Quantums were a new technology at that time. In fact, I believe the Defiant might have been the first ship in the various series to even have them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 53
03-18-2012, 09:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattimus_Prime View Post
The Defiant was hit by torpedoes on other occasions, and was not destroyed "without question". It's true that, given its size, it's not going to take as many high-powered weapon hits to destroy the Defiant as it would other, larger ships... but at the same time, the Defiant is built compact and heavily armored, without inherent hull weaknesses that you get from having windows all over it like a Galaxy does. It's a very tough ship for its size, not a flimsy wet tissue.
There it is again "for its size" and given the Defiant is actually one of the tiniest ships the Federation has that's not that impressive.
There are also some minor issues to consider like physics.
Meaning if you put a whole lot of armor onto a small hull, you end up increasing its mass, thus you are required to increase the propulsion power to keep it moving which in turn requires a more powerful power source etc.
In addition on such a small frame you will have to pack your vital systems rather close to each other which means if and when you receive a hit that will actually damage something it's very likely to hit a far greater amount of vital components than a larger ships.
Also something ovserved on the South Dakota class battleships as opposed to their North carolina class cousins is that stacking too many components into a frame is that you become succeptible to having components damaged while the hull itself remains intact because they are so tightly put together.

The same is true for the supposedly enormous firepower:
As you cannot have more output from the weapons than power you put into them, you need a warpcore to power them and transfer lines to the weapons that can transmit the mount of power needed without overheating and/or burning up.
The same rules as for the weapons apply to the warpcore itself meaning it can only produce power that is proportional to the amount of fuel put into it.
Thus how long the ship can operate with that power consumption depends on the fuel supply that is of course limited by the ship's own size.
So unless the ship is much bigger on the inside than the outside it can't have such a gigantig power output otherwise it would be sucked dry of its fuel reseves in a monumentally short amount of time.

Let's also not forget that the performance of ships in Star Trek increases geometrically depending on the amount of main characters on them.
The Defiant could defeat Birds of Prey and JH fighters with equal ease which would make someone conclude both are roughly of the same performance yet we've seen that a BoP with at least one main character aboard has the ability to withstand as much damage as the Defiant and destroy JH fighters with equal ease.
So the "armor" you're referring to is actually this one:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattimus_Prime View Post
It's also a universally acknowledged fact in canon that the Defiant has the most firepower of any Federation ship at the time of its first deployment. Honestly, with the number of times something to that effect is said on screen (even by Gul Dukat at one point) it's amazing people still doubt it.
Maybe you have a different edition of the episode ("Defiant") than everyone else because there was nothing in that episode about the Defiant being the ship with the most firepower of any Federation ship in that episode.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 54
03-18-2012, 10:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_Trekkie View Post
Most iconic? My Constitution would like to have a word with you.
I'll second that!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 55
03-18-2012, 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
There it is again "for its size" and given the Defiant is actually one of the tiniest ships the Federation has that's not that impressive.
There are also some minor issues to consider like physics.
Meaning if you put a whole lot of armor onto a small hull, you end up increasing its mass, thus you are required to increase the propulsion power to keep it moving which in turn requires a more powerful power source etc.
In addition on such a small frame you will have to pack your vital systems rather close to each other which means if and when you receive a hit that will actually damage something it's very likely to hit a far greater amount of vital components than a larger ships.
Also something ovserved on the South Dakota class battleships as opposed to their North carolina class cousins is that stacking too many components into a frame is that you become succeptible to having components damaged while the hull itself remains intact because they are so tightly put together.

The same is true for the supposedly enormous firepower:
As you cannot have more output from the weapons than power you put into them, you need a warpcore to power them and transfer lines to the weapons that can transmit the mount of power needed without overheating and/or burning up.
The same rules as for the weapons apply to the warpcore itself meaning it can only produce power that is proportional to the amount of fuel put into it.
Thus how long the ship can operate with that power consumption depends on the fuel supply that is of course limited by the ship's own size.
So unless the ship is much bigger on the inside than the outside it can't have such a gigantig power output otherwise it would be sucked dry of its fuel reseves in a monumentally short amount of time.

Let's also not forget that the performance of ships in Star Trek increases geometrically depending on the amount of main characters on them.
The Defiant could defeat Birds of Prey and JH fighters with equal ease which would make someone conclude both are roughly of the same performance yet we've seen that a BoP with at least one main character aboard has the ability to withstand as much damage as the Defiant and destroy JH fighters with equal ease.
So the "armor" you're referring to is actually this one:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor



Maybe you have a different edition of the episode ("Defiant") than everyone else because there was nothing in that episode about the Defiant being the ship with the most firepower of any Federation ship in that episode.
Gul Dukat explicitly says in that episode ("Defiant") that the Defiant is the most heavily armed warship in the sector, putting it at least equal to or better than the Galor-class Cardassian cruisers.

It's also said that the Defiant is overpowered for its size, and this was actually one of the design issues that needed to be addressed early on. On top of that, the warp cores for larger starships like the Galaxy are huge, because the ship is not only also huge, but also because it's designed to power a lot more systems (holodecks, science equipment, etc.) as well as be independent for prolonged periods of time. The Defiant, on the other hand, is specifically designed as an escort and guard ship -- it's only active when out on a specific mission, otherwise it's docked at a station and likely hooked up to the station's power umbilical. It's also explicitly noted that the warp core signature for the Defiant is as much as a much larger starship.

As for the quote that quantum torpedoes from the Lakota would destroy the Defiant... yeah, Quantums were very powerful. But let's also look at screen evidence for the Galaxy-class at hand: the Enterprise-D was destroyed by an old Bird-of-Prey firing photon torpedoes, because the Galaxy had a demonstrated design flaw that made its warp core very temperamental. Seriously, watch the show + Generations, and count the number of times the warp core breaches, or is under threat of breach. It's crazy! Relatively speaking, for hero ships, the Defiant holds up much better in combat situations.
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 56
03-18-2012, 03:17 PM
no arguments the defiant is a warship, but a galaxy can take a galor out without breaking a sweat i refer to the wounded when a galor attacked the enterprise and they disabled it with one shot.

The Galaxy was designed for deep space exploration and 1st contact missions, as we all know 1st contact isn\t always with a species that wants to be your friends and due to not having fleet support whilst out in deep space i hardly believe the Federation would spend soo much time and resource on a space hotel that cannot defend itself.

Regardless of the defiants power and weapons output it would be a smoldering pile of scrap against a galaxy.

my points ofr argument

12 type 10 phaser arrays only type 12 have a better output and these until the Sovvie were put on starbases
2 x burst fire torp tubes capable of firing 10 torps per round.
saucer separation where the stardrive becomes a battleship allowing the families and ect to escape harms way.
A battle bridge, why have a battle bridge on a science ship if it was a ship of exploration and peacetime.
Why 12 phaser arrays 10 of which are on the stardrive section isn't that slightly over armed for a science ship.
Why the flagship of the federation if it wasn't A. the strongest and B. the pinnacle of starship design.

The Galaxy is a battleship however due to politics and the federations peaceful facade it is classed as a explorer as the federation don't build warships.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 57
03-18-2012, 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doylematt4 View Post
no arguments the defiant is a warship, but a galaxy can take a galor out without breaking a sweat i refer to the wounded when a galor attacked the enterprise and they disabled it with one shot.

The Galaxy was designed for deep space exploration and 1st contact missions, as we all know 1st contact isn\t always with a species that wants to be your friends and due to not having fleet support whilst out in deep space i hardly believe the Federation would spend soo much time and resource on a space hotel that cannot defend itself.

Regardless of the defiants power and weapons output it would be a smoldering pile of scrap against a galaxy.

my points ofr argument

12 type 10 phaser arrays only type 12 have a better output and these until the Sovvie were put on starbases
2 x burst fire torp tubes capable of firing 10 torps per round.
saucer separation where the stardrive becomes a battleship allowing the families and ect to escape harms way.
A battle bridge, why have a battle bridge on a science ship if it was a ship of exploration and peacetime.
Why 12 phaser arrays 10 of which are on the stardrive section isn't that slightly over armed for a science ship.
Why the flagship of the federation if it wasn't A. the strongest and B. the pinnacle of starship design.

The Galaxy is a battleship however due to politics and the federations peaceful facade it is classed as a explorer as the federation don't build warships.
Much of your evidence of the Galaxy's tech specs is apocryphal. There's no claiming the Galaxy can't put up a fight, but it was designed more with an eye to defense than attack. Hell, in an alternate timeline, when the Galaxy-class was more of a warship than in the Prime timeline, it was very nearly destroyed by a pair of Klingon Bird-of-Preys.

The fact is that any ship is only as strong or as weak as the writer wanted it to be, which sadly lends itself to conflicting depictions on screen. Still, the Defiant has shown itself to be more consistently capable in combat than the Galaxy.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 58
03-18-2012, 03:50 PM
I do love a good discussion about the merits of one ship over another on screen etc, but the main reason for this thread was to highlight the fact a C-store ship, one that people in theory are supposed to part with cash for, is being rendered obsolete by upcoming changes to another ship, and the introduction of yet another.

There is apparently a "Galaxy pack" in the works, and re-working the Galaxy R would make it far more worthwhile, which is why I brought the topic up. Cryptic would likely sell far more if the ship was worth having, which I think somewhat increases the chances of the Galaxy R being touched up.

Furthermore, in addition to the upcoming changes to the Galaxy-X, don't forget that the ship originally only had 7 weapon slots before, so Cryptic has form with regards to bringing ships "up to standard" already, and with the Galaxy R being a C-store ship, I can think of no reason for them to hold back, and nothing to lose.

The reason I suggested a universal lieutenant is because it doesn't mean more crazy consoles, a ship that canonicly is very similar also has such a setup, and I don't believe it'd break balance, but add utility. Also, as far as I can tell, it'd involve considerably less work for the devs than devising a new console or something along those lines.

I'd like to hear other suggestions, and brainstorm a bit. This is not a "my favourite ship can beat up your favourite ship" thread!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 59
03-18-2012, 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattimus_Prime View Post
Much of your evidence of the Galaxy's tech specs is apocryphal. There's no claiming the Galaxy can't put up a fight, but it was designed more with an eye to defense than attack. Hell, in an alternate timeline, when the Galaxy-class was more of a warship than in the Prime timeline, it was very nearly destroyed by a pair of Klingon Bird-of-Preys.

The fact is that any ship is only as strong or as weak as the writer wanted it to be, which sadly lends itself to conflicting depictions on screen. Still, the Defiant has shown itself to be more consistently capable in combat than the Galaxy.
Against simular sized ships. only time it really went up against anything bigger was in the episode with Tom Riker where it disabled a galor and Paradise Lost against the Lakota and from those scenes iit opens more questions as to how the cardassians during the dominion war were able to stand up to the federation and support their dominion allies and that can the defiant really punch above its weight class as it fought the Lakota to a draw although plot wouldn't allow for the destruction of another fed ship at the hands of another fed ship.

But we never really saw the defiant destroy anything above a BOP or Bugship
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 60
03-18-2012, 04:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebeneezergoode
I do love a good discussion about the merits of one ship over another on screen etc, but the main reason for this thread was to highlight the fact a C-store ship, one that people in theory are supposed to part with cash for, is being rendered obsolete by upcoming changes to another ship, and the introduction of yet another.

There is apparently a "Galaxy pack" in the works, and re-working the Galaxy R would make it far more worthwhile, which is why I brought the topic up. Cryptic would likely sell far more if the ship was worth having, which I think somewhat increases the chances of the Galaxy R being touched up.

Furthermore, in addition to the upcoming changes to the Galaxy-X, don't forget that the ship originally only had 7 weapon slots before, so Cryptic has form with regards to bringing ships "up to standard" already, and with the Galaxy R being a C-store ship, I can think of no reason for them to hold back, and nothing to lose.

The reason I suggested a universal lieutenant is because it doesn't mean more crazy consoles, a ship that canonicly is very similar also has such a setup, and I don't believe it'd break balance, but add utility. Also, as far as I can tell, it'd involve considerably less work for the devs than devising a new console or something along those lines.

I'd like to hear other suggestions, and brainstorm a bit. This is not a "my favourite ship can beat up your favourite ship" thread!
pretty sure the 'galaxy ship' pack is just going to be a re-release as a package deal all the current c store galaxy stuff, the venture, R, and X. at the same time this deal is launched in the c store, they will enable the X to slot the saucer separation console you get from the R.

there will also be a 3 console set bonus from equipping the 3 consoles from the 3 ships on the X, similar the the flagship consoles. i'd say theres a 50% chance they also do something insane like give the galaxy X a 4th tactical console to total 10. 'its balanced because it needs space for all those universal consoles'

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

i'd be surprised if it turned out any different. and i'd be surprised if they use this golden opportunity to adjust the galaxy R so its not the suckiest cruiser by far. its not like they would let it equip the cloak console from the X to get the console set bonus too, right? it wouldn't do a galaxy R a single bit of good anyway.

surprise! galaxy R decloaking! ok now im gonna throw heals, turn poorly, and be a less optimizable and useful as a healer then a star cruiser. im also going to be dealing less damage then all but the star cruiser wile im at it. that's ok, i'll saucer sep and still not do any more damage! and i'll likely get killed because the entire team loves killing sep'ed galaxy's. even more then killing unsep'ed galaxys, which are almost always considered easy marks and flown by noobs.

making the galaxy X guarantied the galaxy R will always be in its shadow, it couldn't be as good or better then the galaxy X, that wouldn't make sense! what this 'galaxy ship' pack should be is combing of the X and R into 1 ship, and the visuals, lance, and cloak of the X should be tied to the 'X console'. if you didn't want to look at the X's ugly extras and silly cannon, don't slot that console, and you would still be left with a good looking galaxy with the galaxy X's more tactical stats. i could live with that, and it would do the galaxy more justice.
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