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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 101
03-14-2012, 02:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
Have you never looked at the official map? The Federation is on the edge of the galaxy with the Romulans, Klingons, and Tholians on one side and Cardassians and Breen on the other.

The reason the Enterprise was spending most of the time in already explored Federation territory is that by Picard's time the Feds are boxed in.

This is also why Voyager needed to be tossed into the Delta quadrant to find new territory to sustain that series, and why DS9 was a station rather than another exploration series. Even there, though, there was the wormhole to the Gamma quadrant.

Only 19% might be charted, but the other 81% is not accessable without crossing borders. Now some of those surrounding races might have room to explore.....

By the way this does beg a few questions, like exactly how the Borg are in Fed territory.... they are not on any official map I have ever seen.
I have. Most of the Federation turf on that map is composed of unexplored areas and non-Federation members.

And, honestly, I use the tech manuals and maps as sources but take them with a grain of salt.

I'm inclined to put the series writer's bibles and submission guidelines ahead of tech manuals, maps, novels, etc. There is generally dated information in the internal design documents like Janeway's first name but they represent the process behind how a story is constructed whereas tech manuals and MSDs and maps were only selectively used by series writers and not taken all that seriously.

From my perspective as a Foundry author, sure I'm a canon nerd who drops lots of references but, overall, I'm interested in understanding and recreating the magic of what went on in the writers' room, not buying into Tolkien-like concordances.

The Galaxy map they released is also flat. The galaxy may be a disc but it's not THAT flat.

The Federation controls very little of the space that's colored blue on that map. Anyone who they're not at war with tends to filter around. There's millions of inhabited worlds inside that space and only 150 are Federation members.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 102
03-14-2012, 04:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baelturath
Not nearly as bad as the previous ones.
I take it you've never watched a single episode or movie of Star Trek then...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 103
03-20-2012, 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
The Federation controls very little of the space that's colored blue on that map. Anyone who they're not at war with tends to filter around. There's millions of inhabited worlds inside that space and only 150 are Federation members.
Not to mention that it would seem to me to be kind of difficult to stop even enemy ships moving at warp speed through such a large volume of space.

I mean, realistically... how in the heck would you stop a fleet of Klingon ships all moving independently at warp speed from reaching Sol? Even if you could see them coming, how would you stop something moving at relativistic speeds let alone hundreds of ships moving that fast?

We kind of ignore those sorts of details for the sake of dramatic effect and assume that there is some logical reason why it doesn't happen. We never look at the man behind the curtain unless the curtain's on fire.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 104
03-20-2012, 02:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
Not to mention that it would seem to me to be kind of difficult to stop even enemy ships moving at warp speed through such a large volume of space.

I mean, realistically... how in the heck would you stop a fleet of Klingon ships all moving independently at warp speed from reaching Sol? Even if you could see them coming, how would you stop something moving at relativistic speeds let alone hundreds of ships moving that fast?

We kind of ignore those sorts of details for the sake of dramatic effect and assume that there is some logical reason why it doesn't happen. We never look at the man behind the curtain unless the curtain's on fire.
In some ways, we seriously underestimate what kind of amazing technical feats Startrek tech is doing on a regular basis. Just look at their long range sensors - we have difficulties detecting planets at that distance! They can detect ships - shuttles even - across light years of distance. Of course, you may say "they can only do that because the warp engines cause so strong signals" - but think of that - a star at that distance is a tiny dot we might miss in the night sky. Either the warp engines really give off ridicilious amounts of radiation, or they have ridicilious powerful sensors.

And that's not even talking about the details of warp, beaming, holodecks or replicators. Just something "simple" as long-range sensors.

(And the opposite is also true for their cloaking devices. You can't cloak anything as totally as they do in Startrek. Containing the heat emissions alone would force serious problems, and if you don't contain it, you could certainly easily detect a strong heat source within a few hundreds of thousands kilometers, especially with the kind of sensors Startrek employs - but the cloaking devices fool these sensors completely!)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 105
03-20-2012, 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
I have. Most of the Federation turf on that map is composed of unexplored areas and non-Federation members.

And, honestly, I use the tech manuals and maps as sources but take them with a grain of salt.

I'm inclined to put the series writer's bibles and submission guidelines ahead of tech manuals, maps, novels, etc. There is generally dated information in the internal design documents like Janeway's first name but they represent the process behind how a story is constructed whereas tech manuals and MSDs and maps were only selectively used by series writers and not taken all that seriously.

From my perspective as a Foundry author, sure I'm a canon nerd who drops lots of references but, overall, I'm interested in understanding and recreating the magic of what went on in the writers' room, not buying into Tolkien-like concordances.

The Galaxy map they released is also flat. The galaxy may be a disc but it's not THAT flat.

The Federation controls very little of the space that's colored blue on that map. Anyone who they're not at war with tends to filter around. There's millions of inhabited worlds inside that space and only 150 are Federation members.
Retcon. Sherman's Planet (Trouble with Tribbles) is "near the Klingon-federation border." A war was fought with the Romulans using mostly impulse and/or early warp ships (per Balance of Terror). If the majority of space is 'unexplored,' why are the colonies furthest out being colonized first/ fought over? It would be like fighting the War of 1812 over Washington State before even colonizing/exploring Oklahoma.

And the galaxy really is flat enough to be represented in 2d. Local charts would need to be 3 d but strategic/galaxy maps, not so. The z axis isn't adding that much more.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 106
03-20-2012, 03:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
In some ways, we seriously underestimate what kind of amazing technical feats Startrek tech is doing on a regular basis. Just look at their long range sensors - we have difficulties detecting planets at that distance! They can detect ships - shuttles even - across light years of distance. Of course, you may say "they can only do that because the warp engines cause so strong signals" - but think of that - a star at that distance is a tiny dot we might miss in the night sky. Either the warp engines really give off ridicilious amounts of radiation, or they have ridicilious powerful sensors.

And that's not even talking about the details of warp, beaming, holodecks or replicators. Just something "simple" as long-range sensors.

(And the opposite is also true for their cloaking devices. You can't cloak anything as totally as they do in Startrek. Containing the heat emissions alone would force serious problems, and if you don't contain it, you could certainly easily detect a strong heat source within a few hundreds of thousands kilometers, especially with the kind of sensors Startrek employs - but the cloaking devices fool these sensors completely!)
To a great degree it assumes a large increase in processing power. The signals are received, but it takes serious calculations to isolate them from background noise.

I remember seeing a documentary on Star Trek technology and they took the position that transporters were impossible because of the sheer volume of data storage they would require... struck me as odd at the time that they singled that out rather than quantum issues in measuring the states of every atom in the person or object to be transported.

As for cloaking, heat doesn't transmit well at all in a vacuum. A warp signature is an actual warping of spacetime to cheat relativity. A cloaking device might compensate for that by warping the surrounding ambient energy to compensate, conceiling the signature... hypotheticly at least....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 107
03-20-2012, 03:52 PM
IMO, effort seemed to be made that suggests STO may have been intended to be a hybrid of all three archetypes being suggested in the OP. Narrativeist (story missions) and gamist (ground combat), and simulationist (space combat). However, the game is out-of-balance between those efforts. Which, IMO, will always go back to the unfortunate, short development prior to launch of the game. IMO, if the Narrativeists efforts were permitted proper resources, it could serve as the thread to weave all three efforts together better. That is the polish that, IMO, would better serve the IP that is Star Trek.

I disagree that STO lacks a camp element. Q represents this rather well.

As far as the galaxy map goes, it is certainly less than to be desired. It's been said many times in these forums that space is big. I love the soft-canon map books. Though I agree that interpreting hard borders in interstellar space isn't too realistic. Franz Joseph was the only one who may have gotten it right. He referred to the Federation Treaty Exploration Territory on his maps. Just because a warp-capable civilization exists inside the treaty territory doesn't mean that those worlds are Federation worlds by default. Or that they must join the Federation at all. Even if the Federation really likes them a lot and bends over backwards to welcome them. Nor does this mean that those worlds can be forbidden from interstellar travel. Again, space is big. For all we know, there is an equally advanced civilization right in Sirius Sector who just rolls their eyes at the Federations next interstellar war front.

Specific to our map, it's been pointed out many times in these forums that the white lines connecting solitary sector blocks may not mean only a 2D connection across distances. A sector can exist under or over another one. Allowing Federation territory to meander over, under and around someone elses. The Federation isn't' necessarily land-locked. And neither are the Klingons. It would be nice to see something that bears that out. Even if, again, not all sector blocks are defined.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 108 Wait, wait...
03-20-2012, 04:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer
I generally have a problem with statements such as this. It assumes that everybody sees the IP as the same thing, which is hardly the case.

Could you elaborate on where you see it not representing the IP? What you see as the Star Trek IP...?
Virusdancer, you are thinking mostly the same as I am, but maybe not quite as far. My first question when Leviathan trotted out this statement was, "WAIT! Hold on, just what do you define as the IP?"

There can be no denying that the ST franchise changed enormously from Gene Roddenberry's original vision of the 1960's. Comparing anything after STNG to the old original STOS is like night and day in some ways. I'm not going to say STOS was better, or that Voyager was best, or any of that tired nonsense. My point is simply that the essential nature of what we called Star Trek changed in an ongoing process of almost evolution through the various series.

Trying to somehow distill all of that into one single defining thing and call it IP reminds me of the story about the three statisticians who went elephant hunting. The first statistician fired at the elephant and missed by a foot to the right. The second statistician fired at the elephant and missed by a foot to the left. The third statistician threw up her arms and exulted, "We got him!"

With all due respect to Leviathan, I think he's over-intellectualizing on the whole subject, and by a sizable margin. Then again, when it comes to art, I'm an anti-interpretationist, and Star Trek is definitely art.

And on that note, Ars longa, vita brevis, I'm going to stop writing about the game and go play it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 109
03-20-2012, 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psi'a Meese
Specific to our map, it's been pointed out many times in these forums that the white lines connecting solitary sector blocks may not mean only a 2D connection across distances. A sector can exist under or over another one. Allowing Federation territory to meander over, under and around someone elses. The Federation isn't' necessarily land-locked. And neither are the Klingons. It would be nice to see something that bears that out. Even if, again, not all sector blocks are defined.
Consider, the Enterprise has been to the Romulan and Klingon homeworlds, with less than a year travel time to either. These are both empires that are also expanding and exploring. Space is indeed big, but most of it is empty and systems with class M planets are relatively scarce.

Given that, plus the fact that border systems are colonized, what evidence other than wishful thinking is there that the Federation isn't 'land locked?'
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