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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 61
03-20-2012, 10:07 AM
Quote:
- Loads of useless powers;
- Powers that are simply "must have" (EPtS, Tactical Team);
- Countless combinations of gear/powers/skills/duty officers with different effectivenesses;
- Dramatic buffed/unbuffed difference;

All of this combined makes the perfect recipe for new players to go in and be blown completely out of the water.
I wonder how hard it would be to have one or two concise stickied threads that listed these countless combinations and "must haves" in one spot so the novice PvP'er could come in, read it then have a basis from which to ask questions?

The ego will always have reason to complain but the mind can be taught to overide the ego and listen when given reason.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 62
03-20-2012, 10:36 AM
To the OP, though I suspect you are probably long gone, you do realise that the "morons", as you so eloquently put it, in this thread are probably the self same people who are destroying you in 3 seconds flat, right? So yea, what would they know, huh?


In case anyone can't tell..... </sarcasm>
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 63
03-20-2012, 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
I wonder how hard it would be to have one or two concise stickied threads that listed these countless combinations and "must haves" in one spot so the novice PvP'er could come in, read it then have a basis from which to ask questions?

The ego will always have reason to complain but the mind can be taught to overide the ego and listen when given reason.
I think we had plenty of such threads, but I am afraid there will always be flaws to it. I believe Zorena just recently posted a neat one of this type (have everyone provide 2 PvP tips).

One fundamental problem is how people use forums. They look for the wrong thread titles. They automatically dismiss any Stickies (I do that all the time!). And then they end up posting a thread and, quite frankly, tons of people are lousy writers that also write when in a bad mood or unfocused and what they write will cause negative reactions. The OP may have fallen into some of these traps as well, but he's hardly alone.

I certainly believe we should never stop trying, and do everything to encourage rather than discourage PvP. Even those bad players with a bad attitude may be able to be turned into a neat PuGger and maybe even an Elite PvPer. But people are people. Sometimes they react emotional.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 64
03-20-2012, 11:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I think we had plenty of such threads, but I am afraid there will always be flaws to it. I believe Zorena just recently posted a neat one of this type (have everyone provide 2 PvP tips).

One fundamental problem is how people use forums. They look for the wrong thread titles. They automatically dismiss any Stickies (I do that all the time!). And then they end up posting a thread and, quite frankly, tons of people are lousy writers that also write when in a bad mood or unfocused and what they write will cause negative reactions. The OP may have fallen into some of these traps as well, but he's hardly alone.

I certainly believe we should never stop trying, and do everything to encourage rather than discourage PvP. Even those bad players with a bad attitude may be able to be turned into a neat PuGger and maybe even an Elite PvPer. But people are people. Sometimes they react emotional.
I was hoping for one big thread so a Novice could be pointed in the right direction. Part of the issue may be that they can't find via search what they are looking for and end up starting a new thread asking for help or just claim defeat and cry foul.
wait I think you just said that :p

Anyway a thread that went over the combo's and such would be nice.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 65
03-20-2012, 11:47 AM
Quote:
I was hoping for one big thread so a Novice could be pointed in the right direction. Part of the issue may be that they can't find via search what they are looking for and end up starting a new thread asking for help or just claim defeat and cry foul.
wait I think you just said that :p

Anyway a thread that went over the combo's and such would be nice.
Also, I think people often miss the actual helpful threads and start their own instead.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 66
03-20-2012, 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonnehs View Post
I've just done 2 random arena style space battles, in which I have been soundly 3shot by the same guy in an escort about 30 times total within half an hour (over 2 games).

Could the pvp in this game be any more inaccessible? I honestly see no reason to bother putting in any effort into researching whats going on and why I seem to be getting so owned. When the TTL is so short, learning to play well seems more like a job than a game to me. Utterly pointless to queue up for games when you're just going to get destroyed with no chance to actually have fun.

Yeah yeah, I'm a noob. Thats klinda my point you know? Whats the hook to keep me playing? Why should I bother to learn this complicated game when its just a chore to learn and not fun to play while you are doing so?
To all the new PVPers out there...

It takes time... I've been playing for over a year now - and I think I have only now begun to scratch the surface of what being a good PVPer is.

I am sorry - but PVPing is not the same thing as PVEing... The skill level is very different, and I would equate PVPing to those individuals who take their skill level to a whole other level. It all depends on you, and your style of play and optimizing it for best results in PVP scenarios.

If I could share my experiences - I would say - get in PVP arenas and try to study different players styles. At the end of the PVP - PM them, and you will find that many of them are very helpful.

On that note, there a lot of great threads out here that give you some great ideas on how to build your ships... But at the end of the day, you need to improve your skills on being a better pilot - I know, that sounds vague, but with time - you will see your skill level improve drastically. Practice, Practice!

Don't get discouraged!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 67
03-20-2012, 05:21 PM
I feel like I'm some rare and skittish deer, looking at how the gamekeepers talk about how best not to scare me away and raise me to become a fine specimen for hunting. Meaning, yes, I'm a relatively new PvP player, only been playing the game for a month now I think. So I guess I'll chime in to give an idea of how I went about learning the ropes, offering, say, an outside perspective on some problems I encountered.

1) First of all, the fact that the skill-tree and the game in general have changed drastically and fundamentally means there are an amazing number of tips, hints and recommended builds which are outdated, only adding to the confusion of anyone who tries to find out how to actually play. Instead, any new player first has to find out what to actually search for, as merely searching in general (STO builds, tactical/engineer/science guides etc.) can net both recent as well as ancient topics, and a new player has no idea how far he can go back in the online literature before what he reads becomes outdated.

2) A changing environment together with the uncertainty whether certain mechanics are still in effect and working as intended requires, nay, demands of a new player that he read up on game mechanics like a professor reading up on his current field of research. Many topics that can influence your build and style decisions appear to be themselves undecided. Furthermore, a new player does not yet know which players on a forum he can trust as offering unequivocally correct information; ie., he does not yet know what information is reliable.

Anecdotal interlude: For example, I was under the delusion that my escort needed EPS flow regulator consoles to keep up damage output, but I've recently found a topic which re-opened that debate, arguing that in fact EPS consoles aren't needed. So I dumped them and switched to RCS consoles for more manoeuvrability and I'm quite happy with it. Unless I actually did some testing myself, I had no way of knowing whether EPS consoles 1) worked, 2) were effective, 3) were the best choice. Another skill I've tried but found lacking was torpedo spread III. It seems that in the past it was somewhat bugged, critting massively, and now it appears to be bugged in the reverse, sometimes healing the opponent. Neither the current situation with EPS consoles nor the torp spread III issue is entirely clear to me, as I haven't done any testing myself, leaving me in the unclear as to whether the information on the forums is currently correct or whether the bugs and mechanics I read up on are, a month or two later, already outdated. And this is very important because of my third point:

3) Tiny adjustments to your play style can have massive effects on your performance. And, however exhaustive we wish to be on these forums, information is always limited, and that which PvP'ers take for granted often goes unsaid on forums. For example, I hardly ever took a good look at active space DOFF's. I used some, but I barely knew what they did, and the DOFF topics over in the DOFF section only talked at length about, for me, boring lectures on how to recruit, level in rank, and do sequences of DOFF missions. Most guides on the PvP forum are also silent on the topic of DOFF's. It took another player to point out to me that having some shield distribution officers, and using them together with brace for impact, could suddenly improve my shield healing enormously. For a new player, this does not come intuitively nor logically. DOFF's feel like a minor addition, whereas new players focus on builds, weapon loadouts, and general equipment. These last three topics are well-covered by the forums, but they provide the basics, not the finesse, and I notice more and more that it is the finesse which can make an adequate player incredibly capable regardless of what role he's trying to perform.

In conclusion: What you would actually need, to offer a comprehensive guide to any new PvP player, would be a STO PvP Wiki that centralises information, keeps it up to date, keeps the discussion public but hidden from the front page so as not to confuse anyone, and ties this all together. There is a massive amount of great information here, but nothing to pull it all together, and very little in terms of ending a discussion. And what a new player looks for, first of all, is certainty and simplicity. What works, what doesn't. The proverbial cookiecutter build. And STO seems to have a knack to throw new PvP players into a den of bewilderment by offering an amazing variety of choice and fine-tuning coupled with mechanics that themselves need a forum guide (thanks for that one by the way) and then still remain, in certain cases, obtuse as to whether they actually work the way people expect them to. (It does not help, of course, that the game so often throws a wrench into this entire complicated machinery by introducing bugs such as the Jem'Hadar shield and the field generator stack.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 68
03-20-2012, 05:29 PM
Well there are some -recent- guides that we've kept going in this section of the forums. (why we don't post them in the relevant ship forums is anyone's guess... my reason was Everyone comes here at some point or another that wants to pvp.. secondly... there are some seriously Stupid "veterans" of STO in those other forums. It's not worth having them crap in my thread and ruin any advice given by myself or others by having their fail setups clogging the thread)

Good baseline to start with is this forum. The holy trinity of Cruiser, Sci and Escort are contained here pretty well, and are generally kept up to date. I wouldn't touch the Cruiser, Escort, Sci etc forums with a ten foot pole myself.

I don't know about Husanak and Makai's intentions but I try to keep DOFFs discussed and updated in my help desk thread as often as possible. Not so much the acquisition, (as I assume we'll all just buy them on the exchange anyway LOL) but their implementation and possible implications for ship builds.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 69
03-20-2012, 06:34 PM
ive been thinking of typing out a full console and skill tree skill guide that lists all of them, tells you what they do, what they effect, and most impotently when, were, and why you would use them or spec into them.

like an eps console, literally worthless unless you are in an escort that pubs a lot and can't count on reliable support and needs to run often, and also uses beam overload.

you know it just occurred to me that this console doesn't boost the eps skill on the skill tree, it just buffs transfer rate. this makes the console a bit outdated, if it buffed the skill on the skill tree your energy would transfer faster AND the abilities that are buffed by the skill, like all the EPtX abilities, would be improved.

this is just 1 example of what ive learned on my own by playing for 2 years, anyone can learn it too, i didn't have any help. i'd like others to not have to spend 2 years learning the same thing, but typed out guides can only help so much, you have to start pvping at a low level, its the only way to actually learn how to play, when everything is simple.
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