Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
04-03-2012, 10:08 AM
Is there a differance or is it just me, thinking that Drain and Damage is key words?

Too many people say cpb does shield damage but it doesn't do Damage because its not negated with resists and therefore its a shield Drain?

Charged Particle Burst, Tachyon drones, Tachyon Beam, Tractor Beam +(boff) and Tetryon Glider is all Drains.

Where as Tetryon (weapon) is a Damage proc that is reduced by shield resist.

Please verify borticus.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
04-03-2012, 10:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorena
Is there a differance or is it just me, thinking that Drain and Damage is key words?

Too many people say cpb does shield damage but it doesn't do Damage because its not negated with resists and therefore its a shield Drain?

Charged Particle Burst, Tachyon drones, Tachyon Beam, Tractor Beam +(boff) and Tetryon Glider is all Drains.

Where as Tetryon (weapon) is a Damage proc that is reduced by shield resist.

Please verify borticus.
I was testing my main which uses a brel all projectile mode with most of those and found npcs have a much higher resistance than players do. It looks like thought the CPB is damage where as a tach beam or tractor beam with the doff is a shield drain. Based on my testing here and what borticus has stated the CPB is fine it works properly npcs and players alike which is the shield damage. Its these procs which are drains all shield is key in the keyword (same with that tetryon glider). I would also go out on a limb and say the drones too are draining.

In conclusion i'd have to say without knowing these players who became my unfortunate victims in this test to say they had some resistances I would gather to say it doesn't work for a player but npcs have too high of a working resistance against drains.

The only contradictory thing in one post being a player probally doesn't have 25k shields... I could be wrong and even with resistance an all out shield drain assault might require a player to allow me to drain it all and then wait till its done and reshield since that was around double of what a players shield can be.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
04-03-2012, 10:40 AM
Internally the data for a Shield "Damage" and a Shield "Drain" ability is exactly the same. Those abilities are set up to deal damage to your Shield Attribute Pool.

Getting them to deal damage only to the directional shield facing aimed at you is... tricky. I think it can be done, but I'd need to dig a little deeper to be sure. That doesn't sound like a bad idea for Tetryon Glider.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
04-03-2012, 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BorticusCryptic
Internally the data for a Shield "Damage" and a Shield "Drain" ability is exactly the same. Those abilities are set up to deal damage to your Shield Attribute Pool.

Getting them to deal damage only to the directional shield facing aimed at you is... tricky. I think it can be done, but I'd need to dig a little deeper to be sure. That doesn't sound like a bad idea for Tetryon Glider.
From when I've used those abilities like tetryon and tetryon glider if it is working at all that is what it is doing already....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
04-03-2012, 10:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BorticusCryptic
Internally the data for a Shield "Damage" and a Shield "Drain" ability is exactly the same. Those abilities are set up to deal damage to your Shield Attribute Pool.

Getting them to deal damage only to the directional shield facing aimed at you is... tricky. I think it can be done, but I'd need to dig a little deeper to be sure. That doesn't sound like a bad idea for Tetryon Glider.
Does this mean your saying that all shield "Damage" abilitys checks against active resists if not witch skills do?


For example Sci captain, If Spock uses Charged Particle Burst 3 for 4000x4(all facings) shield damage(listed on tooltip) against engineer Scotty, whos running Emergency Power To Shields3 and "something else" To get himself to 50% shield resist the total damage from Charged Particle Burst is actually 2000x4(all facings) shield damage???


Because I do think that it doesn't check resists atm, and I think this is a good thing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
04-03-2012, 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorena
Does this mean your saying that all shield "Damage" abilitys checks against active resists if not witch skills do?
Resists to Shield Damage/Drain are separate from Energy Type resists (Phaser, Tetryon, Kinetic, etc). So no, they are not impacted by abilities that increase your damage resistance.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
04-03-2012, 11:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BorticusCryptic
Resists to Shield Damage/Drain are separate from Energy Type resists (Phaser, Tetryon, Kinetic, etc). So no, they are not impacted by abilities that increase your damage resistance.
Okay, this is getting complicated. I always thought there are basically 2 resistances in play (before the new skills) - hull and shield resistance. These may be additional classified by energy type (phaser, tetryon etc.). My understanding was that a power like Charged Particle Burst does ignore both types. Only the new Power Insulators was supposed to help.

There is shield resistance that you gain from your shield power level and from some powers like Rotate Shield Frequency or (more common) Emergency Power to Shields. How would you classify this resistance among the aforementioned ones? What should it protect against?
  • Phaser, Tetryon, Disruptor etc. damage to shields
  • Tetryon Glider special ability damage to shields
  • Charged Particle Burst drain (damage) to shields
Lt. Commander
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# 28
04-03-2012, 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BorticusCryptic
Resists to Shield Damage/Drain are separate from Energy Type resists (Phaser, Tetryon, Kinetic, etc). So no, they are not impacted by abilities that increase your damage resistance.
This reminds me so much of a topic that dies off, gets revived long enough to nothing ever come from it. Transphasic and Chroniton torpedoes these both come from specific voyager episodes and no where else to start off. The problem I have with them though is pretty much the chronitons are only used as spam in the form of mines in pvp you never see them used for anything other than that and they aren't really effective at probe stopping either. The cannon reference to them is that they were temporal weapons so why don't when there is time to play with them add in some kind of resistance for temporal powers so they can be used and for transphasics... Heretic was saying one time they should have a longer cool down but have a lot more damage but not to make them better/more damage than a tricobalt.

The other issue against these 2 types of torpedos is that for one take Mr. Photon he is a handy dandy well polished torpedo of a torpedo. If you take those other 2 I talked about the photon far outshines the kinetic damage of either of those done to a shielded target. I guess this is where the point is lost between player and dev is why use a torpedo designed for shield penetration when you get a standard torpedo that does even more kinetic damage?

I guess aside from the shield stuff being balanced/fixed however you want to view it I think we need a torp balance too because I believe they should all have their usefulness...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
04-03-2012, 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Okay, this is getting complicated...
Let me phrase it another way, then...

"Shield" Damage is simply a type of damage, just like "Phaser" or "Kinetic."

Many damage types, such as each individual energy type, Kinetic, Physical, and a few others, are frequently thrown into categories that cover multiple resistances. "All Energy" is an example of such a category, and covers all 6 primary energy weapon types in addition to Feedback Pulse, Electrical, and Proton damage.

Shield Damage is not included in any categories, and is handled exclusively as a separate type of damage. The only modifiers that change its values should be Flow Capacitors (offense) and Power Insulators (defense).

Shield Damage and Shield Drain are mutually interchangeable terms in STO -- they work in the exact same manner under the hood, by directly changing the available pool of Shield Hitpoints. The different terminology is typically used to separate instant effects (damage) from periodic effects (drain).

Hope that clarifies it.
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 30
04-03-2012, 01:28 PM
so ability and power level shield resistance is an all energys resist, and an all everything else resist. except a 'shield' damage resist. insulators is the only resistance to 'shield' damage, it is also the only resistance to the rate and severity of power level drain right?

ok the whole drain and damage thing now makes sense, it was the same thing all along only the thing we considered drain was a whole other type of damage.

the tool dip for glider says "+X Tetryon damage to energy attacks", so is it actually dealing tetryon damage, a damage that would be covered in an all energy resist and thus normal shield resistance, or is the tooltip wrong and its dealing 'shield' damage?



i mentioned this in the carrier ai thread, but there is a problem with the energy drain drone carrier pets. if 1 or 2 snag you with drains, your very nearly screwed, and when the rest of them catch up you are rendered completely energy less and helpless. they don't blow up on their own after they over feed or anything, if theres is no one around with FAW or a torpedo spread or tractor repulsers you are permanently shut down until killed. the only semi reliable way to escape is an engine battery and evasive, if you can fire it off before to much of the battery power is drained.

its now kind of impossible to que up in pvp with klingons right now, so many people are using carriers loaded with 2 or 3 bays full of these things. almost every klingon match ive had has seen half the team in carriers spaming these things and rendering our team completely inert. im surprised no one else is complaining about it actually.

they kill energy so fast, insulators cant be doing anything to help. being drained of all energy permanently by something is completely overpowered, insulators at 6 points needs to be preventing your power from draining below 50 or something, so you can defend yourself when caught by them, or there needs to be a limit of 1 hanger full of these things. something, when they sneak up on you your as dead as you would be if hit by the old theta radiation.
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