Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 71
04-01-2012, 04:21 AM
Originally Posted by kimmera
No, it just has to be 3000 common, unneeded things. They don't have to be exactly the same. It doesn't have to be 3000 either. That is an arbitrary number for the sake of argument.
No it isn't. 3,000 is not some arbitrary number used pertaining to unwanted crap you can vendor. It was the number I brought into the conversation because it is (ballpark; the actual number is higher) the number of identical Rank 4 items required to make one Rank 9 mod with zero failures.

That's the thing. With this system you need over 3,000 Rank 4 STR mods, without failure, to make a single Rank 9 STR mod, and you need nine mods total for top end gear. You find a Rank 3 STR mod? Worthless without four more to turn into a Rank 4 STR mod. You find a DEX mod of any rank? Worthless because you can't combine it with your STR mods.

3,000, the number I used, isn't a random number and thus you can't treat it as such for a comparison. It is the number of like items you must collect if you are really, really, really, SPECTACULARLY lucky.

So if you want to talk common drops, where it could represent anything then in answer to your question:
"What is the difference between that and getting 3000 common drops that no one really needs, including you?"
Is that the two things have absolutely nothing in common because I wasn't talking about 3,000 random items, but the need to collect 3,000 specific items (from a MUCH larger pool) at an absolute (and unrealistic) minimum, nine times over, in addition to all your standard gear.

Originally Posted by kimmera
You still can. It means lowering your expectations.
No, I'm going to say this again: higher ranked mods don't exist without fusing. You are wrong. You cannot get lucky and get the drops because they do not drop. Period. So no, you can't. It is literally impossible.

Originally Posted by kimmera
I wasn't aware though that the only way to get endgame useful drops was via crafting. When did that happen?
This is the system being implemented in Champions Online right now. It's scheduled to launch mid-April.

Originally Posted by kimmera
Even if that becomes the case in STO (which is not a given), again it is 'some assembly required.'
It's not though. There's no "some" about it. Ideally you're looking at over 27,000 harvested at Rank 4 under ideal circumstances, with good failure rates at high levels over 50%, and bad ones (which you will have to deal with due to the school system) being as high as 75% at low levels.

Each Rank 9 will have, even ideally, literally thousands of chances to fail due to all of the fusions required to make it and again... look at those odds listed. And remember that some of those mods (the ones at the ranks where you're more likely to fail) will be composed of 600+ farmed mods fused together. And these mods are not just dropping from the sky.

Originally Posted by kimmera
Right now, are you guaranteed the drop you want any time you run an STF ? There is no need to farm in STO at all? Nothing is rare?
Oh no, no, no. We're talking about MODS. These are in ADDITION to gear. They plug INTO gear. You still have to farm for your purple levelled gear too so you have something to put your mods into. That's where your equivalents comes in there. That's where you're going to find your STF gear equivalent.

Oh, and STF gear you can get with one lucky drop (high ranked mods you can't), and with the exception of the XII stuff, you are guaranteed progress every time toward what you want from the store (and with mods you aren't). You also never lose your progress toward your next piece of gear (with mods you can and are likely to). And you don't have to farm 9,000+ for just parts of it (with the mods in CO's new items system you do). You can actually grab a full XI Space/Ground set for 240 chips. Kind of a bargain, no?

Originally Posted by kimmera
Rarity means there are already dice rolls.
And? This has NOTHING to do with dice rolls on their own. You really have trouble actually reading what's written, don't you?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 72
04-01-2012, 06:56 AM
In Free Realms (SOE kids' MMO that isn't that great overall but has some really interesting elements people should steal):

Mining is a bubble popper/puzzle pirates game. You have a bunch of rock, some ore, occasional gems, and a timer. Timer and certain bonuses based on skill/gear.
Match similar colored rock, it vanishes. If ore/gems reach the bottom of the screen, they 'fall' out and into your cart.
You get craft XP and other rewards/bonuses based on how much you get done.

There are other gathering minigames, some along these lines, some different (I'm trying to remember what the farming one is like, but it's been a while)

Crafting is another series of minigames, but more related to what you are doing. For example, for smithing, you have a first minigame where you have to time smashing rocks with a power bar -- time it right and place the hammer blows properly for better results. Then you stoke a forge, timing the bellows. Then you pour out molten metal carefully, not to spill.

Admittedly, assembling gear they sort of fall flat and it's just a recipe (create bolts, 5 bolts + 1 handle = gear)

I would love to see anything like this in STO.

Imagine, you face an asteroid. There are lines of fracture to align your sensors -- do it right, quickly, skillfully and you get information samples.

Assemble information samples by color/shape/whatnot to create device patterns.

And so on. Crafting should be FUN TO DO. It should be a game, not accountancy.
Until it is, I'm avoiding it like the poorly thought-out mess it generally is.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 73
04-04-2012, 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
So this would potentially be their THIRD crafting revamp, and their third failure to make crafting attractive, fun or useful?
True, but I'm still up for them trying again.

As this thread illustrates, the problem is getting a majority to agree on what crafting really means and what it's for.

Is it a store?
Is it a minigame?
Is it some kind of Pavlovian behavior test? (Push the yellow button and get a banana)
Is it irrelevant?
Does it require player skill?
Does it require skill levels?
Should the results be random or not?
Can you fail?
What's it going to cost?
Can you make what you want, or do you have to pick from limited, preset options?

I would like crafting to be more than a store.
I think it would work best as a form of minigame, but that suggests that there might be an element of risk or challenge involved.
I don't think it should be difficult but should involve some thought and decision-making.
I would like it to be very flexible, but needs sensible limits to prevent people from cranking out ubergear. That flexibility needs to come at a price and the price might well be that it's not the most powerful stuff you can get, or the price might be something that's hard to get (Dilithium, rare materials, etc.)

I think a 'Fail' should not cost you in the sense of losing all of your materials. It especially should not waste Dilithium or C-Store points for no result. A fail could represent a less-powerful item than you expected, or simply a failure to combine the materials into the desired result (thus letting you try again).

I think Crafting would make a good matching puzzle type minigame. Combine the right materials in the right order and you get a useful mod which you can plug in to an item "schematic" similar to slotting gear on a ship. Once you figure out the correct 'Recipe' then you can make that item as many times as you want, given enough materials. This would be a very complex implementation, though, and I think Cryptic will want to set their sights on something a little easier.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 74
04-04-2012, 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by Torlak
Before Dilithium, STO's crafting was infinitely better than CO's crafting.

If it wasn't for the ridiculous amounts of Dilithium required STO's wouln't be too bad.

On the other hand CO's crafting just plain stinks.
Even CO's current crafting system isn't totally bad. It's actually has the forerunner of the Fusion/Mod system. The Customzable Blueprints. You selected a Minor (and Major) attribute (stats, special proc, defense, etc), selected what quality you wanted (common, uncommon...ulti-rare). the system would show you the amount of crafting mats you needed to crafting it. Higher qualities required a lot of the common crafting mats and some rare crafting mats to make.

And as for using Fusion/Mod for STO. I don't think it would work so well for STO. Quality of gear is arguably more import for CO. CO character (will) only have 6 slots for gear. Being able to upgrade and really customize those 6 pieces of gear is a necessity.

Having to do that sort of grind for each gear slots on your character, each slot on your BOFFs and upgrades of 25 slots for your ship. Ugh. That would be a real turn off for even the most ardent STO player. STO's crafting is going to have to be lighter in grind per item than COs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 75
04-04-2012, 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by Direphoenix View Post
"Abandoning" sounds like an overdramatic flavor word, I think simply "changing" their crafting system would be a sufficient descriptor.
No "Abandoning" is the proper word. They have (will be) totally scrap the old system. The only crafting materials have absolutely no use in the new system. Even the old specialization crafting instances are gone. The only thing they have kept at the 3 schools and whatever crafing skill your character has. Everything else is GONE.

I'm very curous on that they will be with for player (like me) with mountains of crafting materials in their banks.

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