Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
04-10-2012, 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
What situation are you describing?

At no point on CSE should you have multiple targets close to the kang from multiple directions.
Multiple ships converging on the Kang happens frequently in non-coordinated PUG's. Yes, organized groups do not have to deal with them, but not every player is a CSE expert, let alone coordinated. Many PUG's frequenly rage-quit, leaving a hole in the defense line that cannot be closed as easily without a full group.

While many feel content to just quit once the bonus objective is lost, I prefer to salvage the STF and settle for 2 EDC's + a random drop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
I've seen a lot of people do what you describe, and it still scatters opponents. TBR does not clump enemies up into a ball for focus firing with CSV & Torps.
Yes, TBR can scatter opponents, but scattered-at-long distance still beats mission-lost-due-to-being-overrunned any day

Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
Well, yeah. That's why you use GW before that becomes an issue.

Why would you wait for enemies to get that close to the target to drop GW on them?

If we're assuming the competence to use TBR correctly, we need to assume equal competence to use GW correctly as well.
If your ship suddenly dies due to circumstances beyond your control (focus fired, 200k critical hit, etc.), then there is always a chance that you will not get GW placed before the opponent gets too close. With GW, there is no recourse once your target closes the gap to its objective. However, TBR still gives you a chance even after range is closed to uncomfortable distances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
I think your overestimating just how 'superior' that firepower is. Only a certain number of Torpedos from TS can actually hit a specific single target, and even with a shield facing down not all of those will actually hit the hull. (I'll do some testing if I can this weekend to provide better numbers on how many from each rank of TS will hit hull).

TS 3 adds another target (4 vs. 3), but IIRC has the same amount of Torpedos per target as 2 does. So against a single target like a Negvar the difference in firepower is negligible.
Torpedo Spread single target damage also increases as you take higher level variants... Found this on a quick google search: http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=239389

I also notice the faster kills when using TS3 over TS1. This is why my Advanced Escort can engage CSE nanite probes and BoP's from a stationary position without letting anything through.


Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
I have a Fleet Escort, Defiant, MVAE and AE and all of them can solo a Negvar.

Lastly, if you are clearing probes on CSE you should not be worrying about BoPs. That's the duty of the Kang Defender.

It only takes 1 good escort to completely neutralize all of the BoPs. An excellent one can also provide some backup heals, and fire support to team mates dealing with probes/cubes (I often toss FOMM on Cubes or Negvars as I'm cycling between BoP spawns).

I agree the more tactically focused AE has the better damage output of the two, but I don't think its as huge a gap as you're making it sound and if I was really focused on pure damage dealing capabilities I'd stick to the Fleet Escort (for greater survivability) as it has pretty much everything you need to deal excellent damage.
This also highlights how my recommended AE build can do the job of 1.5 to 2 ships, thereby taking more pressure off any dedicated Kang defenders. If each CSE cube had an Advanced escort running CSV/TS2+3, there would be no need for a dedicated Kang defender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
To be perfectly honest, I would take a second copy of TSS 1 or Polarize Hull 1 before I took TBR on my AE.

I've just haven't felt the need for a push back power at all.
I routinely get complements for saving the bonus objective by TBR'ing when the bonus was close to being lost. I've never seen the same said about GW since the latter cannot clean the mess of a snow-balling swarm.

Lastly, I used to run a c-store MVAM with GW, and while it did fine in most STF's, the Advanced Escort with TBR simply provided superior results with its ability to deliver higher damage and better control multiple targets over a larger area. If you have not tested the above already, please give it a shot before passing judgement, because I evaluated both builds before arriving at any conclusion.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
04-10-2012, 11:43 AM
MVAE is cooler of course, but AE is free with rank instead of $25. Plus you are giving up a LtCmdr tac slot for a lone sci power that will probably be an extra trick as opposed to directly complimentary to the rest of the build. With the same otherwise weapons, hull, shields, and speed, it doesn't seem a cost-effective improvement. I'd stick with the AE, maybe spend dil for a T5 sci ship if you want to switch gears sometimes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
04-10-2012, 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
Multiple ships converging on the Kang happens frequently in non-coordinated PUG's. Yes, organized groups do not have to deal with them, but not every player is a CSE expert, let alone coordinated. Many PUG's frequenly rage-quit, leaving a hole in the defense line that cannot be closed as easily without a full group.

While many feel content to just quit once the bonus objective is lost, I prefer to salvage the STF and settle for 2 EDC's + a random drop.
I can't really pass judgement, that's your preference and prerogative. It's your game time afterall.

I simply do not join PUGs from the queue. I don't necessarily run with a fleet or the same group of people though, it's all coordinate through global channels.

So our experiences might be markedly different, and in my experience the usefulness of something like TBR is severely diminished.

In yours, it appears you have to help make up for less than effective teammates. So in that situation, perhaps TBR gets a chance to shine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
Torpedo Spread single target damage also increases as you take higher level variants... Found this on a quick google search: http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=239389

I also notice the faster kills when using TS3 over TS1. This is why my Advanced Escort can engage CSE nanite probes and BoP's from a stationary position without letting anything through.
That part I do recognize, but nothing says the MVAE can't gave at least TS 2.

The difference from TS 1 to TS 3 is decently large, but the jump from 1 to 2 or 2 to 3 is not so massive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
This also highlights how my recommended AE build can do the job of 1.5 to 2 ships, thereby taking more pressure off any dedicated Kang defenders. If each CSE cube had an Advanced escort running CSV/TS2+3, there would be no need for a dedicated Kang defender.
I don't believe that, simply because focus firing on the probes and getting the cubes done faster is more important than trying to relieve pressure where simply none exists outside of what must be a truly terrible team.

The BoP spawn is really the least of the team's obstacles, and few things are as frustrating to me watching team mates target the BoPs when they have higher priority targets to deal with and the BoPs are already handily covered.

On any team targeting BoPs when I'm guarding Kang, I will repeatedly ask them to stop.

1) Because they should focus on nanites, cubes and cube defender spawn.

2) Because I don't want to fall asleep.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
I routinely get complements for saving the bonus objective by TBR'ing when the bonus was close to being lost. I've never seen the same said about GW since the latter cannot clean the mess of a snow-balling swarm.

Lastly, I used to run a c-store MVAM with GW, and while it did fine in most STF's, the Advanced Escort with TBR simply provided superior results with its ability to deliver higher damage and better control multiple targets over a larger area. If you have not tested the above already, please give it a shot before passing judgement, because I evaluated both builds before arriving at any conclusion.

I'll make you a deal.

I'll give TBR another try and a fairer shot than I've done, if you're willing to give some global channel formed teams a try and see the difference.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
04-10-2012, 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
I can't really pass judgement, that's your preference and prerogative. It's your game time afterall.

I simply do not join PUGs from the queue. I don't necessarily run with a fleet or the same group of people though, it's all coordinate through global channels.

So our experiences might be markedly different, and in my experience the usefulness of something like TBR is severely diminished.

In yours, it appears you have to help make up for less than effective teammates. So in that situation, perhaps TBR gets a chance to shine.
Each STF imposes a 1 hour lockout after entry for that map, and outright desertion imposes a 1 hour global lockout on all STF's. Since each STF takes roughly 15-20 minutes to finish, staying to finish the STF without the bonus still nets the player more rewards long term, not to mention avoids the 1 hour all-STF lockout.


Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
That part I do recognize, but nothing says the MVAE can't gave at least TS 2.

The difference from TS 1 to TS 3 is decently large, but the jump from 1 to 2 or 2 to 3 is not so massive.
When you choose the MVAE over the AE+MVAM module, you are essentially downgrading TS3 to TS1 since both ships should be carrying TS2 anyway. The result is a significant net DPS loss regardless of how many targets are present. In a nutshell: (TS2 + TS3) > (TS2 + TS1) by a good margin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
I don't believe that, simply because focus firing on the probes and getting the cubes done faster is more important than trying to relieve pressure where simply none exists outside of what must be a truly terrible team.

The BoP spawn is really the least of the team's obstacles, and few things are as frustrating to me watching team mates target the BoPs when they have higher priority targets to deal with and the BoPs are already handily covered.

On any team targeting BoPs when I'm guarding Kang, I will repeatedly ask them to stop.

1) Because they should focus on nanites, cubes and cube defender spawn.

2) Because I don't want to fall asleep.
When you have an extra ship freed because you've removed its guard duty requirement, that ship can now go help with taking out other targets, thereby speeding up the whole STF run. Furthermore, with CSV and Torpedo Spread, you should always be attacking multiple targets -- otherwise you are not using those abilities to their best potential.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
I'll make you a deal.

I'll give TBR another try and a fairer shot than I've done, if you're willing to give some global channel formed teams a try and see the difference.
There's no denying that an organized team will almost always be better than a disorganized PUG, but sometimes players do not have the luxury of cherry-picking their team mates, especially during late night PDT hours. However, there is no reason why you can't make a ship that excels regardless of other player ship layouts. Yes, STF's revolve around teams, but I don't mind lifting up my team mates when they run into problems, so long as they stick around and follow the basic 10% rule.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
04-11-2012, 06:18 AM
I just hate people who use TBR because it comes off cooldown, and seem to be constantly pushing things everywhere with it. In fact I've only ever seen 1 or 2 people use it for the betterment of the team.

I've had TBR bulldoze probes out of my Gravity Well where I was CSVing em to death, infact he used the Evasive Manuvers & TBR combo to bulldoze the damn things into the gate they head for.

I've seen TBR used on the Bosses for no fathomable reason. Donatra was being tanked, the Tank was Broardsiding her and she was trying to get an angle on him. Hello TBR guy pushes her out so she can Torp Spread everyone. Me and the Tank survived, I guess we both popped all out defence.

At least people who drop a Gravity Well constantly aren't knocking the target out of your arc or things into their objectives.

Yes straight up, these people are obviously clueless as to what they are doing. But it is really starting to make me hate TBR, because the frequency is increasing.

My request is please learn how to use TBR, and like all BOFF abilites there is a time and a place to use it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
04-11-2012, 06:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKnight1000
I just hate people who use TBR because it comes off cooldown, and seem to be constantly pushing things everywhere with it. In fact I've only ever seen 1 or 2 people use it for the betterment of the team.

I've had TBR bulldoze probes out of my Gravity Well where I was CSVing em to death, infact he used the Evasive Manuvers & TBR combo to bulldoze the damn things into the gate they head for.

I've seen TBR used on the Bosses for no fathomable reason. Donatra was being tanked, the Tank was Broardsiding her and she was trying to get an angle on him. Hello TBR guy pushes her out so she can Torp Spread everyone. Me and the Tank survived, I guess we both popped all out defence.

At least people who drop a Gravity Well constantly aren't knocking the target out of your arc or things into their objectives.

Yes straight up, these people are obviously clueless as to what they are doing. But it is really starting to make me hate TBR, because the frequency is increasing.

My request is please learn how to use TBR, and like all BOFF abilites there is a time and a place to use it.
When I use it, I tend to try to push my enemies into the less advantagous position (into ship explosions, gravity wells and that sort). The are too many people that just pop it when it comes off of cooldown. It really is horrible to have a Bortas or Gal-x with DHC line up for a volley and the enemy ship get pushed out of arc.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
04-11-2012, 08:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
Each STF imposes a 1 hour lockout after entry for that map, and outright desertion imposes a 1 hour global lockout on all STF's. Since each STF takes roughly 15-20 minutes to finish, staying to finish the STF without the bonus still nets the player more rewards long term, not to mention avoids the 1 hour all-STF lockout.
I've already given you my advice on this, stop joining the PUG queue and join a global channel for doing Elites.

I've never left a single STF I've ever been on, and I think in the past 3-4 weeks of running Elite STFs I have only seen 2 failed optionals.

I run 3 (slow day) to 9 Elite Space STFs on weeknights, and run anywhere from 10-30 on weekends. Some times I end up grouped with names I recognize and sometimes I don't know anyone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
When you choose the MVAE over the AE+MVAM module, you are essentially downgrading TS3 to TS1 since both ships should be carrying TS2 anyway. The result is a significant net DPS loss regardless of how many targets are present. In a nutshell: (TS2 + TS3) > (TS2 + TS1) by a good margin.
When I choose the MVAE over the AE I am choosing the ship that can slot a BOFF for GW to be used on probe duty during KASE, or to clump spheres together after the nanite generator is down on ISE (yes after, haven't seen a single failed ISE optional in a month of Elites).

I'm also choosing the ship that can swap that BOFF out to one with TSS 3, which allows me to move into a DPS/Support role if it seems useful.

Finally, I play the MVAE over the AE because to be frank, I have other high damage focused ships that outdo both the MVAE and the AE in overall performance IMO (Fleet & JHAS).

I have yet to be on a single elite run where I felt I needed TBR or was happy when a group member used it.

Usually, group members use it to push stuff when it's not needed at all.

Much like the above two posters, I've actually seen someone TBR a mass of spheres OUT OF 2 Gravity wells and the combined fire of the entire team.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
When you have an extra ship freed because you've removed its guard duty requirement, that ship can now go help with taking out other targets, thereby speeding up the whole STF run.
Are you now saying that you can cover all 3 cubes?

Or does this now require your entire randomly composed PUG to be formed of AEs using TBR?

Helping cover 1 sides BoPs doesn't help anyone. The BoPs melt against a single escort, nothing else is needed.

If your Kang protector cant do that, they need to be replaced ASAP.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
04-11-2012, 09:50 AM
*looks around*

*whispers*

TBR can find Donatra while cloaked. Don't tell anybody!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
04-11-2012, 10:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
I've already given you my advice on this, stop joining the PUG queue and join a global channel for doing Elites.

I've never left a single STF I've ever been on, and I think in the past 3-4 weeks of running Elite STFs I have only seen 2 failed optionals.

I run 3 (slow day) to 9 Elite Space STFs on weeknights, and run anywhere from 10-30 on weekends. Some times I end up grouped with names I recognize and sometimes I don't know anyone.
...And I've already addressed the above here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
There's no denying that an organized team will almost always be better than a disorganized PUG, but sometimes players do not have the luxury of cherry-picking their team mates, especially during late night PDT hours.
...<SNIP>...
Yes, I tend to play during later hours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
When I choose the MVAE over the AE I am choosing the ship that can slot a BOFF for GW to be used on probe duty during KASE, or to clump spheres together after the nanite generator is down on ISE (yes after, haven't seen a single failed ISE optional in a month of Elites).

I'm also choosing the ship that can swap that BOFF out to one with TSS 3, which allows me to move into a DPS/Support role if it seems useful.

Finally, I play the MVAE over the AE because to be frank, I have other high damage focused ships that outdo both the MVAE and the AE in overall performance IMO (Fleet & JHAS).
My counterpoint to the above is that your choice directly diminishes maximum possible DPS in exchange for a short-duration AoE hold, and if that GW is not dropped in time, it will not save the team from a snow-balling-swarm scenario. Yes, prebuiilts don't have to worry as much since they tend to have more practice and better overall gear, but as mentioned previously, my ship design is meant for all teams, and not just prebuilts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
I have yet to be on a single elite run where I felt I needed TBR or was happy when a group member used it.

Usually, group members use it to push stuff when it's not needed at all.

Much like the above two posters, I've actually seen someone TBR a mass of spheres OUT OF 2 Gravity wells and the combined fire of the entire team.
TBR is a precision ability that does require good piloting skills and situational awareness to use correctly... in the right hands, it does wonders, but don't expect the same results when you pass this scalpel to a drunkard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
Are you now saying that you can cover all 3 cubes?

Or does this now require your entire randomly composed PUG to be formed of AEs using TBR?

Helping cover 1 sides BoPs doesn't help anyone. The BoPs melt against a single escort, nothing else is needed.

If your Kang protector cant do that, they need to be replaced ASAP.
No, I was simply stating that one escort type build running CSV1+2 and TS2+3 can completely contain an ECS cube -- it need not be an Advanced Escort, but it still needs good DPS to do its job well. The Advanced Escort has the benefit of having 1 Lt. Science ability as a trump card when things go bad, as opposed to relying on GW and team mates to make up for lowered DPS.

Let me be clear -- I am only comparing ship builds of the AE+TBR+TS3 vs. MVAE+GW+TS1, not PUG vs. Prebuilt (because we already know which group type is better). The way I've seen this thread progress, the MVAE seems easier to use but has lower DPS and stationary hold capabilities only. The Advanced Escort has better DPS via TS3, but TBR has to be used both selectively and correctly to make a positive difference.

Both of us clearly have our preferred ship build, and I doubt either of us are going to change selections based on the other's opinion. Both ships have their own strengths and weaknesses. One clearly has a steeper learning curve. I previously flew the MVAE+GW+TS1 build, and its results steered me to look for a better but more demanding option. I found it in the AE+TBR+TS3 config.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
04-11-2012, 11:08 AM
... and here I am sticking my Sci alt in the Defiant-Retro for STFs because I'm too cheap to buy a different escort ._.
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