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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 81
04-11-2012, 11:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pezacoatl
BTW the fail-STF elite I have seen where mostly due to execution, the DPS requirements, even for the optionals, are not that steep.
The main STF that's failable with poor DPS is KASE, in my experience, thanks to the giant pile of HP sponges; that's the main reason my Sci is in a Defiant-R for STFs (also because I'm too cheap for an MVAE atm) - you don't need to crowd-control what's dead, any escort can carry emergency TB/Rs anyways (and the MVAE has that LtCdr sci), escorts can crossheal each other against just about everything but the doomtorp, and all the GW/TBR in the world won't help munch through the transformers or gates like a good rack of guns with APB and Sensor Scan will.

It may be a bit of an epeen contest, but the space STFs really are about max damage all the time at almost all levels. Until it gets fixed, don't whine about people propagating a truth, whine about the idiots who can't design a good raid.

It could be worse though, I guess - your loot could be based more-or-less entirely on damage out like SB24 :/

(Also for what it's worth, in CSE the first time I'll go "Tac Fleet Tac Init ALL BUFFS NAO" is generally once the first cube goes down; the others get allbuff mode if it looks like we need it, etc. No point waiting for the tac cube to spawn if someone stuffed the nanite gen sync and the crowd control is strained ...)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 82
04-13-2012, 01:22 AM
I think the biggest mistake everyone here made is in thinking that the TDPS shown in combatlogparser is definitive of your DPS in STFs when you are solely logging an STF run. It is only relative DPS, since it is very subjected to the team you have. At best it gives you a comparison in standing among the current team you have.

I say this because STFs have a nearly fixed amount of hit points shared by 5 people, mainly the stationary unshielded high hit points targets and fixed number of cubes. It is very possible to score 13k DPS in a very fast run of CSE with a team of high DPS escorts, and yet a high DPS player may log under 4K DPS when an STF drags out. Saying there's something wrong with a ship's build for having low DPS then, is wrong. That player could have very well score over 1-2 million damage in excess of the next closest player with that 4K DPS but over 15mins instead of an 8min STF run.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 83
04-13-2012, 02:14 AM
As someone who has run Beam Escorts, this Pure DPS mentality is flawed and there are several reasons why (some of which have been mentioned):

1. Fire at Will = You hit lots of targets, even targets you don't need to hit and targets you won't do much damage to, so you will do lots of DPS. This makes your DPS numbers mathematically astronomical because you are just hitting so much stuff constantly, but it doesn't mean you actually KILL your target faster!

This leads into 2...

2. Killing targets quickly isn't just about overall DPS. Example, killing a wave of probes/spheres headed to a gate is NOT faster with a Beam build than with a traditional DHC Scatter/Torp spread build. These targets can be Alpha striked for quick kills, which can take significantly longer to kill with a Beam build using traditional DPS tactics.

And finally, the big secret in STO...

3. Big critical hits do more for your in-game scores than overall DPS can achieve. This is mostly for PVP and Fleet action purposes, and more for the situational battles in STF's, but the big critical hits achieved by Torpedoes or other bigger hitting weapon strikes (Overload for example) can actually do MORE damage than the target even has in terms of hitpoints! This also includes explosions that you might be credited with.

This means that if say you are attacking an entire fleet of Klingons in Station 24 and manage to hit a bunch at once with a heavily buffed Torpedo Spread, you will get large critical hits on targets with very little hit points left along quite quite a few secondary "splash" explosions, giving you "bonus points" that will credit to your points and actually allow you to beat someone using a pure DPS beam approach statistically.

This isn't something that can be measured with a traditional DPS parser, and thus something that won't show up these logs.


As for fast Elite STF runs.... The FASTEST are always the runs with lots of high DPS escorts, but with at least one Power-sucking build Sci ship or Carrier capable of turning a Gate, Tac cube or other target into a squishy target for all that DPS. An all-DPS Escort beam group won't be nearly as quick.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 84
04-13-2012, 07:57 AM
I was playing around with different loadouts on my defiant last night in elite STFs and it appears that 4xDBBs fore and 2xarrays and Quantum launcher at aft result in far quicker kills of all enemies than when I loaded 4xDHC, 3 turrets

Thoughts?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 85
04-13-2012, 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by masclobo View Post
Thoughts?
You were doing it wrong.
Try moving inside of 3km.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 86
04-13-2012, 09:37 AM
does damage on cannons depend on range?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 87
04-13-2012, 09:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by masclobo View Post
does damage on cannons depend on range?
Yes.
under 5 k cannons outclass beams on base DPS.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 88
04-13-2012, 04:55 PM
It feels arrogant to re-post myself, but I feel like all of these points are still relevant to the discussion at hand.

Additionally, while informative, there's a distinct lack of mechanical explanation on beam abilities and a different mentality on DPS in general that should be mentioned.
So I thought I could add to what is currently available on this page with some specifics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostamojen View Post
As someone who has run Beam Escorts, this Pure DPS mentality is flawed and there are several reasons why (some of which have been mentioned):

1. Fire at Will = You hit lots of targets, even targets you don't need to hit and targets you won't do much damage to, so you will do lots of DPS. This makes your DPS numbers mathematically astronomical because you are just hitting so much stuff constantly, but it doesn't mean you actually KILL your target faster!

Fire at Will (FaW) shoots 25% more beam/beam bank for 1 volley (4 beams/volley -> 5 beams/volley). Additionally, you get a minor bonus dmg % to each beam, netting you ~30% -> 40% more DPS for 1 volley.
As noted, FaW shoots random targets, and is more for tagging targets with Attack Pattern Beta than actual AoE.


In comparison Cannon Scatter Volley (CSV) gives a 15% + 5% / rank dmg bonus to all cannons/turrets and makes each one AoE up to 3 targets for 10 seconds. The net result is even the use of this ability on a single target increases your DPS more than FaW.

I see no reason not to count AoE DPS, even one as impotent as FaW as the dmg done is completely relevant to effectiveness and the efficiency of an STF.
The effect that's ultimately important is the sum effect of your team, and shooting wildly with FaW does not detract from that.

The only exception is AoEing a regenerating target. That's empty DPS padding and definitely something to be avoided.


This leads into 2...

2. Killing targets quickly isn't just about overall DPS. Example, killing a wave of probes/spheres headed to a gate is NOT faster with a Beam build than with a traditional DHC Scatter/Torp spread build. These targets can be Alpha striked for quick kills, which can take significantly longer to kill with a Beam build using traditional DPS tactics.

As far as I can see this adds to your overall DPS, has it's own utility, usefulness, and should be taken at face value when compared to a beam boat, which is as noted, less efficient at AoE.


And finally, the big secret in STO...

3. Big critical hits do more for your in-game scores than overall DPS can achieve. This is mostly for PVP and Fleet action purposes, and more for the situational battles in STF's, but the big critical hits achieved by Torpedoes or other bigger hitting weapon strikes (Overload for example) can actually do MORE damage than the target even has in terms of hitpoints! This also includes explosions that you might be credited with.

This means that if say you are attacking an entire fleet of Klingons in Station 24 and manage to hit a bunch at once with a heavily buffed Torpedo Spread, you will get large critical hits on targets with very little hit points left along quite quite a few secondary "splash" explosions, giving you "bonus points" that will credit to your points and actually allow you to beat someone using a pure DPS beam approach statistically.

This isn't something that can be measured with a traditional DPS parser, and thus something that won't show up these logs.

All dmg sources do this. While it is true that torpedoes will do it more dramatically than energy weapons, unless you go into an STF with the specific goal of getting the last hits on groups of targets with a torpedo spread, then this isn't going to be a major source of error.
AoE is an acknowledged weakness of beam boats and no player should explain away damage discrepancies with this argument.

Frankly a pure beam boat is sub-par when it comes to AoE, as it's abilities just don't support such a build. A group of cannon escorts with a torpedo and spread will be both numerically superior and be more efficient at clearing an STF than a comparably equipped beam boat squad.

What's ultimately important in deciding which to go is whether you as a player are comfortable with the tradeoffs of going beams vs cannons.


As for fast Elite STF runs.... The FASTEST are always the runs with lots of high DPS escorts, but with at least one Power-sucking build Sci ship or Carrier capable of turning a Gate, Tac cube or other target into a squishy target for all that DPS. An all-DPS Escort beam group won't be nearly as quick.

This is simply not true. Graphing the Damage Resistance curve shows us that the 5 escorts with 10 Attack Pattern Beta III & IIs between them (APB) and either Fire on my Mark(FoMM) or Sensor Scan (SS) will be faster than 4 escorts + 1 science vessel. DPS is lost when an escort dies. Between 5 escorts there is easily enough healing to keep any member with aggro alive to any boss target.

There are however other tradeoffs besides speed to be concerned about; namely laziness, which is my favorite statistic to maximize.
A science vessel can make things easier for the team and frankly, by the time you get to a boss, you're either done with the optional or it's ISE, an STF where losing the optional is difficult to accomplish.

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 89
04-13-2012, 06:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ekental View Post
This is simply not true. Graphing the Damage Resistance curve shows us that the 5 escorts with 10 Attack Pattern Beta III & IIs between them (APB) and either Fire on my Mark(FoMM) or Sensor Scan (SS) will be faster than 4 escorts + 1 science vessel. DPS is lost when an escort dies. Between 5 escorts there is easily enough healing to keep any member with aggro alive to any boss target.
You aren't accounting for the power sucking abilities of well built Sci/Carrier builds.

My fastest Infected Elite run ever had 1 carrier and 4 escorts. Had both transformers dead with more than 10 minutes left on the clock, and the tac cube lasted less than 30 seconds.

They key was the Carriers ability to suck ALL the power from a target, so NPC's like the normal cubes and tac cube (even the Gate) simply lost all their shields and just sat there unable to fire, allowing all the Escorts to hit the targets with their full DPS. The loss of the 5th Escort didn't matter, because even with 5 escorts you still won't be able to burn through the larger targets that quickly, and I've had dozens of all-Escort runs to back that up.

Now I have no idea how to perfect those power-drain builds, but every time I run a STF with someone using one of those setups its apparent how effective they are in improving the speed at which an STF can be completed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 90
04-13-2012, 10:31 PM
There is definitely nothing better than having a carrier along with power siphon drones. As fun and as damaging as flying a raptor can be, just being able to turn off ships at will blows anything else out of the water.

I normally play my KDF tac in a Kar'fi, torp boat style so I can ignore weapon power (and do pretty ridiculous amounts of damage, anyway). Tanking cubes or gates or really anything is easier than on my Fed Eng. And of course, no one else dies, either, unless they do something catastrophically stupid (like sitting in front of donatra or whatever).

DPS is great, its wonderful, and probably is the most functionally significant attribute we can bring into the mix. But it is not the end-all-be-all of usefulness.

Like Kost said, 5 escorts probably have theoretically higher dps than 4 escorts and cruiser/carrier. However, 5 escorts are either going to be popping one after another, or having to out-range the cube when they get aggro, etc. Having someone along who can soak up the damage, or negate it entirely lets the escorts do what they do best, sit there and pewpew their little hearts out. And that will increase the *effective* dps that the group is capable of doing. Especially with the new and worse death penalties coming in a few days.
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