Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
So to do this lock box event and avoid falling into the legal mess that is legalized gambling Cryptic needs to show that each customer that purchases a key receives equal or greater value for that key as if they had simply purchased the item instead. So although the item may have a greater value than 90 Cryptic Points it must not have a lesser value. In short although Cryptic does state an "average value" that is actually not relevant to the question of "is this gambling or not". Average value does not matter. Maximum value does not matter. Only the minimum value matters. This is why the boxes are not supposed to be completely empty.

But if a box only has one Lobi Crystal inside that satisfies our minimum value. You can actually purchase at least one in game item with that Lobi Crystal. So such a box allows Cryptic to abide by the letter of the law and avoid the onus of being classified as an online casino. This is why they are under no obligation to publish any sort of "odds".

So we can see that a Lobi Crystal has a maximum value of 90 Cryptic Points. But since it is that value that is used as the legal basis for avoiding any sort of gambling regulations, we can reasonably use it as the par value. As there are no stated "odds" it is not incumbent on the customers to make determinations on anything other than the minimal return on a single Master Key. So any item that can be purchased with Lobi Crystals now has a Cryptic Point value also.

So a ship console has a value of 18000 Cryptic Points.

They may have messed up. Maybe not. That one item that can be bought for a single Lobi Crystal is there for a reason though. That's no accident. Without that the house of cards sorta falls down. They may have just rushed that in and failed to adjust the rest of the system. Who knows.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
04-17-2012, 10:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thissler
So to do this lock box event and avoid falling into the legal mess that is legalized gambling Cryptic needs to show that each customer that purchases a key receives equal or greater value for that key as if they had simply purchased the item instead. So although the item may have a greater value than 90 Cryptic Points it must not have a lesser value. In short although Cryptic does state an "average value" that is actually not relevant to the question of "is this gambling or not". Average value does not matter. Maximum value does not matter. Only the minimum value matters. This is why the boxes are not supposed to be completely empty.

But if a box only has one Lobi Crystal inside that satisfies our minimum value. You can actually purchase at least one in game item with that Lobi Crystal. So such a box allows Cryptic to abide by the letter of the law and avoid the onus of being classified as an online casino. This is why they are under no obligation to publish any sort of "odds".

So we can see that a Lobi Crystal has a maximum value of 90 Cryptic Points. But since it is that value that is used as the legal basis for avoiding any sort of gambling regulations, we can reasonably use it as the par value. As there are no stated "odds" it is not incumbent on the customers to make determinations on anything other than the minimal return on a single Master Key. So any item that can be purchased with Lobi Crystals now has a Cryptic Point value also.

So a ship console has a value of 18000 Cryptic Points.

They may have messed up. Maybe not. That one item that can be bought for a single Lobi Crystal is there for a reason though. That's no accident. Without that the house of cards sorta falls down. They may have just rushed that in and failed to adjust the rest of the system. Who knows.
Under US law gambling is the trading of currency or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome, with the hopes of winning some currency or material goods. I am not going to do the bundle prices so you pay 80 Cents for 100 C-Points to get a Key, that opens a box that is known before hand will not return any money or material item. And sense no item can be traded for money or material goods, it is never gambling under US law of course.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3 Gambling
04-17-2012, 10:51 PM
More then one MMO is being looked at for gambling becouse of lockboxs. They are a lotto and they better have talk with there people make sure there legal.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
04-18-2012, 06:53 AM
No. That isn't gambling. Trading of currency is something most people do every day. I'm not quite sure what you mean by uncertain outcome but be assured that in the land of both commerce and gambling the outcomes are very clearly defined. Even more clearly in gambling actually.

"A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome"

What is missing in the lockboxes is the element of "risk". There is no risk as there is always some item in the box that cryptic has deemed is worth at least the cost of opening the box. So there is no "certain" outcome that needs to occur when the box is opened. Just open it. I'm really not quite sure what you are trying to say, but as long as Cryptic provides an item of equal value to the cost of a Key, virtual or not, it will not be gambling.

"More then one MMO is being looked at for gambling becouse of lockboxs. They are a lotto and they better have talk with there people make sure there legal."

Not a lottery. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti.../State+Lottery There is some interesting reading on Lotteries.

Lockboxes are not going to fall under any sort of game of chance as there is no risk. No risk means there is no potential for loss on the part of the purchaser. The purchaser always receives equal or greater value.

The only way to refute this is to dispute the value of the proffered items. That cannot be done by arguing that they are virtual. But it could be done if cryptic had failed to demonstrate that they routinely sell in the course of doing business many items of similar description for similar cost. Cryptic can't just say "oh hay this widget is worth a 100 C Points". They need to demonstrate that they have actually sold items similar to widgets for a similar price.

What this means is any sales of uniform unlocks helps to establish a par value for uniform unlocks to C Points. If people have straight up PAID to have an unlock then that value won't be something you can dispute. Now if Cryptic puts that item in a lockbox it can be used to determine a value for that box. This is by way of example. It could be pets. It could be ships. They just need to be some item that Cryptic has sold in number.

The problem they are running into is that they are not keeping that value consistent. Lobi crystals are now incredibly expensive. It's 240 C Points for a shuttle pet in the C Store. Well let's be generous and say that would get you three master keys and because you're a lucky sort you get twenty Lobi crystals. Time to go get a pet from the Lobi store!! Woot! Except you CANT because its thirty crystals.

So by introducing a currency into the lockboxes Cryptic has also allowed that a exchange value between currencies be established. As all these currencies are used to purchase similar items it is very easy to compare C Store prices with Lobi Trader prices. These values are not consistent and that could be a troublesome area for Cryptic to stay in. The values need to be consistent. Because if the values aren't consistent, then you could say that you HAVE lost value and that there WAS INDEED a risk.

If there were no Lobi Crystals or the items available from the Trader were dissimilar to C Store items there would be no argument. But they are available and they are in fact very similar.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
04-18-2012, 07:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thissler

The only way to refute this is to dispute the value of the proffered items. That cannot be done by arguing that they are virtual. But it could be done if cryptic had failed to demonstrate that they routinely sell in the course of doing business many items of similar description for similar cost. Cryptic can't just say "oh hay this widget is worth a 100 C Points". They need to demonstrate that they have actually sold items similar to widgets for a similar price.

What this means is any sales of uniform unlocks helps to establish a par value for uniform unlocks to C Points. If people have straight up PAID to have an unlock then that value won't be something you can dispute. Now if Cryptic puts that item in a lockbox it can be used to determine a value for that box. This is by way of example. It could be pets. It could be ships. They just need to be some item that Cryptic has sold in number.

The problem they are running into is that they are not keeping that value consistent. Lobi crystals are now incredibly expensive. It's 240 C Points for a shuttle pet in the C Store. Well let's be generous and say that would get you three master keys and because you're a lucky sort you get twenty Lobi crystals. Time to go get a pet from the Lobi store!! Woot! Except you CANT because its thirty crystals.

So by introducing a currency into the lockboxes Cryptic has also allowed that a exchange value between currencies be established. As all these currencies are used to purchase similar items it is very easy to compare C Store prices with Lobi Trader prices. These values are not consistent and that could be a troublesome area for Cryptic to stay in. The values need to be consistent. Because if the values aren't consistent, then you could say that you HAVE lost value and that there WAS INDEED a risk.

If there were no Lobi Crystals or the items available from the Trader were dissimilar to C Store items there would be no argument. But they are available and they are in fact very similar.
Exactly Right! I will be taking this issue up with them and reporting them again and again until this kind of loss is stopped!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
04-18-2012, 08:00 AM
This kind of loss will be stopped when you don't buy keys. We all know this is a game and there is no chance of receiving anything of any value. Be it mob drops, crafted items or lockboxes, there is no value as there is no resale option. You are buying entertainment and last I checked, when I pay for a movie/book/cd and it sucks, I have to suck it up.

Don't get me wrong, I think the whole lockbox deal is a scam as even if you unlock the 'grand prize', you've spent real money on a single ship on a single character. No thanks. If I'm spending real money, I'll unlock it across the board.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
04-18-2012, 09:09 AM
I think its a scam too, but its a scam i dont need to pay for. If you dont want to buy keys to open boxes to get the prizes, then either get keys via the exchange or refine dilithium and use that for keys. Cryptic/PWE are bleeding people dry of money but are returning it with more content in the last 4 months then the previous year. But as i'm not stupid enough to buy keys then rage about them thrn its all win win i guess?

Dont like boxes either? Dont buy them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
04-18-2012, 11:55 AM
It's still a customer satisfaction issue, no matter what.

I want several of the items listed as being in the lockbox or in the Lobi store. I would have bought and used C-Points for them.

Except... I can't get them that way. In fact, I'm not guaranteed to get them at all. And I'm intelligent enough to recognize that the odds are skewed badly enough against me that there's no point in trying.

There is a real psychological pressure that's being fueled by denying me something I want. But giving in to that impulse is ultimately self-destructive behavior. Negative stimuli is nearly always effective in the short run, but you don't keep customers that way.
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