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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
04-13-2012, 03:27 PM
Quote:
Critical Hit, Severity, and multipliers do NOT boost tetryon's shield drain effect, only its base damage. This amounts to a DPS loss when compared to weapons like AP whose +20% Crit Severity bonus is directly increased.
Of course they boost base tetryon damage, just like they boost base antiproton damage. Antiproton damage is simply bossted slightly further

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I'll probably agree here, but only because I drop high yield quantums through open shields when possible
Yes, it is one of viable options. Main problem is taking shields down first, and Tetryons are somehow useful in this job.

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Tetryon Shield Drain is also diminished by Power Insulators, and based on the last set of patch notes, power insulators seems to have gotten a boost.
There are ways of mitigating all types of damage, tetryons are not exception.


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If you want, I'll be happy to test my AP ship vs. your tetryon ship. This way we can compile hard numbers to test each weapon type's effectiveness. I'm also running Mk XII AP weapons on my ship, so it should be a reasonable test.
Difference between these two weapons is negligible, so 1vs1 duel will show differences between ship builds, not weapon type. To make test useful, we should test same weapon type on same build on same target - it is only in-game way of evaluating tetryons vs antiprotons value. Thats why I prefer pure calculations - it is much more accurate then in-game tests. But if you just want nice 1vs1 duel, why not?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
04-13-2012, 04:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathray38
...<SNIP>...

Difference between these two weapons is negligible, so 1vs1 duel will show differences between ship builds, not weapon type. To make test useful, we should test same weapon type on same build on same target - it is only in-game way of evaluating tetryons vs antiprotons value. Thats why I prefer pure calculations - it is much more accurate then in-game tests. But if you just want nice 1vs1 duel, why not?
If I understand correctly, we are trying to compare AP weapons used by a crit-optimized captain vs. Tetryon weapons used by a drain-optimized captain. I have the former, and your captain should provide the latter. We will need a 3rd party test fire target so that we can compare our builds and weapon numbers against the same target. We can also duel 1-1 if we cannot locate a player willing to serve as the test-firing target. Once we've done a set number of kills, we can check the damage totals to see which one delivers better stats.

EDIT: Something else I forgot to mention -- given that STF Borg have massive hull points and rarely regenerate shields, when you engage these in combat, you will be hitting bare hull about 90% of the fight. This puts tetryon at a big disadvantage for STF's. AP has enough flexibility for either PVP or PVE, while Tetryon would only shine vs. PVP targets with more shield recovery and lower hull totals.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
04-13-2012, 04:25 PM
Test will show effectiveness of one ship build+character development vs other build+character development. On top of that abilities timings and individual skills are more important then anything else... Basically it's like trying to measure sub-atomic particle size using standard microscope... It's not possible this way. Of course there is nothing wrong with little duel - but it will not give clear answer neither way.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
04-13-2012, 04:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathray38
Test will show effectiveness of one ship build+character development vs other build+character development. On top of that abilities timings and individual skills are more important then anything else... Basically it's like trying to measure sub-atomic particle size using standard microscope... It's not possible this way. Of course there is nothing wrong with little duel - but it will not give clear answer neither way.
My assertion is that Anti-proton weapons will out-damage tetryon weapons when user-captain is properly spec'd to take full advantage of critical hit rates and maximized critical severity. Your assertion is that tetryon will deliver comparable or better results. This is why I've proposed putting the theory-crafting asside and perform a live-fire test vs. the same target. The arena stats will record all numbers empirically. Multiple tests will allow us to plot average damage and minimize experimental luck factor. I'm pretty sure I can get a fellow fleet member to serve as a target dummy. After we've compiled the numbers, I can post the results here.

Once we're done testing, we can duel to test our individual captain and ship builds.

UPDATE: We ran a few 1-1's. Unfortunately my build kept getting a positional advantage due to tractor beams, so the dog-fight results could not be relied upon. We then tried a few stationary firing duels using only 2 cannons and 2 turrets per ship.

EDIT: In the latter tests, damage was roughly the same, but your build had 2 Omega pieces equipped, while mine did not. Sorry for this oversight, since this presented better results for Tetryon than its actual damage output (The Omega Set Tetryon Glider proc was doing the real work, not the Tetryon weapons themselves). We can re-run these tests with either no tetryon glider bonus present, or both ships running it so that the set variables actually match. I would recommend removing the Omega Set items in the next test so that you can get accurate Tetryon vs. AP weapon comparisons.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
04-15-2012, 12:47 PM
Quote:
originally posted by Cygone
Bloddy hell thats allot of questions, I suppose I better start answering them

I think I have answered everything, if not, please let me know, you asked ALLOT of questions,

Actually, I tried to ask them in a way that you could just answer one or a few, options, answer this OR that.
Thanks for the answers so far, waiting with bated breath for the results of any further tests ( no one else seems to be doing any tests).

Basically, I see it like this:
There are not too many DOF abilities that actually increase DPS, maybe only this one really (at least directly and significantly).
Therefore if you want to see a noticable increase in DPS, torpedo DOFF's are it.
However, people have talked about 3 purple DOF's, but no one has provided hard numbers to show exactly how many and what quality DOF's do what.
You are the only one who has provided any hard numbers at all.
Thus we do not know where a certain number of DOF's or launchers are overkill.

As for torpedo skills, the idea is this:
If you are going to use torpedoes, naturally you want torpedo skills to go with them to maximize DPS.
These skills fire mutiple torpedoes.
Multiple torpedoes means mutiple chance for torpedo DOF's to proc (20% times 2 or 3 or 4 torpedoes rather than just 1).
These mutiple chances result in the torpedo DOF's proccing, so you start firing faster.
Firing faster right at the start will change the nornal firing rate, which means more torpedoes in the same timeframe, which means more chance for the DOF's to continue to proc.
If you get unlucky later, and they don't proc, if you are using 2 torpedo skills (torpedo spread or high yield) every 15 seconds, that means that every 15 seconds you are firing mutiple torpedoes giving multiple chances for the DOF's to proc again, so they almost certainly will, ramping up firing speed and the chance for them to keep procing.
Thus using torpedo skills should result in a faster overall firing rate for this test.
And that should change the results of the test.
And I suggested having 2 torpedo skills and putting them on the spacebar so that they will go off exactly every 15 seconds and thus not admit a variable in the test.
Note also, higher level torpedo skills may fire more torpedoes giving a greater chance for multiple DOF's to proc, and a faster firing rate, especially with either less torpedo launchers and/or less number or quality of DOF's.
It is possible to get multiple copies of spread 3 from one of the 2800 missions.
Without the right tactical slots, you may not be able to fit multiple copies of say spread 3 on many ships, so tactical type ships may have an advantage here.
In actual combat, the advantage of using two copies of a torpedo skill may be that you can maintain a high firing rate with less torpedo launchers or less torpedo DOF's.

As for trying the test with just 1 torpedo launcher, well, very few people use more than one launcher. Therefore, a test that starts with 2 launchers and goes up to 3 does not tell us that 3 DOF's are not good for people who use only 1 launcher.Your tests show that there are diminishing returns as you go from 2 to 3 launchers, that suggests that there may be increasing returns if one drops down to 1 launcher, 3 DOF's may actually be cost effective. However, using 2 torpedo skills may increase the chances for the DOF's to proc, thus maybe allowing you to drop to 2 DOF's and achieve the same firing rate.

Very interested in your transphasic tests, maybe someday, 4 transphasic launchers and 3 purple DOF's.
Your multiple torpedo idea (any type) plus the Klingon Honar Guard set and it's +25% torpedo DPS also might be promising.
And then there is the new Farengi "Rapid Fire Missile Launcher, Behave like torpedoes. 180 degree targeting arc. Quick cooldown .+20% Accuracy. You may only equip one of this weapon per ship " (no other information)
And "Console - Rule 62 Multipurpose Combat Console
Rare Universal Console +11% Mine and Torpedo Damage +46% Power Transfer Rate +17 Starship Flow Capacitors



If when using multiple torpedo launchers with torpedo skills might endanger the target buddy, I have realised that if all you are doing is testing how many torpedoes you can fire in 300 seconds, they don't have to be hard hitting torpedoes. Mk I common quality torpedoes will do as well for such tests as pruple borg ones, and give no chance of actually killling anyone. Using those, you might even be able to test them against unshielded targets without killing them, if needed.

How did your DOF's get killed, can DOF's be killed in PvP (I selddom PvP)?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
04-16-2012, 10:07 AM
I made the switch from all Borg Mk XII Antiproton to Mk XII Borg Tetryon weapons.

I really like Antiproton energy weapons because of the larger punch they can pack but I made the move to Tetryon to be more specialized in shield cracking.

I tested a couple of setups and found varying results.

The Build I settled for looks like this:

Defiant Refit
Forward weapons
2 x Mk XII (Borg) Tetryon DHC and 2 x Mk XII (Borg) Photon Torpedo

AFT 3 x Mk XII (Borg) Tetryon Turret

Tetryon is outstanding for ripping down shields; however, they really donít do much damage to bare hull and thatís where my Photon Torpedoís come in.

Using Tetryon Dual Canons, I was able to bring down shield facing in about 2 seconds but the overall damage to the bare hull was to low IMO and I decided to go with DHC for a bit more damage.

If youíre running a Shield stripping build with Tetryon Glider then Tetryons are the way to go.

Antiproton weapons can hit much harder than Tetryon but can sometimes take much longer to bring down shield facings but against bare hull they can be quite devastating.

I use my rapid fire photon torpedo setup to balance out my overall DPS.

There will never be a perfect for all energy weapon type; however, there will always be perfect for your build energy weapon types.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
04-16-2012, 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0Gambit0 View Post
I made the switch from all Borg Mk XII Antiproton to Mk XII Borg Tetryon weapons.

I really like Antiproton energy weapons because of the larger punch they can pack but I made the move to Tetryon to be more specialized in shield cracking.

I tested a couple of setups and found varying results.

The Build I settled for looks like this:

Defiant Refit
Forward weapons
2 x Mk XII (Borg) Tetryon DHC and 2 x Mk XII (Borg) Photon Torpedo

AFT 3 x Mk XII (Borg) Tetryon Turret

Tetryon is outstanding for ripping down shields; however, they really donít do much damage to bare hull and thatís where my Photon Torpedoís come in.

Using Tetryon Dual Canons, I was able to bring down shield facing in about 2 seconds but the overall damage to the bare hull was to low IMO and I decided to go with DHC for a bit more damage.

If youíre running a Shield stripping build with Tetryon Glider then Tetryons are the way to go.

Antiproton weapons can hit much harder than Tetryon but can sometimes take much longer to bring down shield facings but against bare hull they can be quite devastating.

I use my rapid fire photon torpedo setup to balance out my overall DPS.

There will never be a perfect for all energy weapon type; however, there will always be perfect for your build energy weapon types.
Based on testing this past weekend, I've found that Antiproton weapons with Tetryon Glider (from two Omega set items) seems to be the best offensive platform available in the current patch. Tetryon Glider easily outpaces the base tetryon weapon procs for shield removal because of its 100% proc rate. However, unlike pure Tetryon weapon builds, AP maintains consistent damage regardless the target's current shield or hull state.

When deathray38 and I were doing stationary AP vs. Tetryon fire tests against each other's ships, we were killing each other at about 1-1 while he was running Tetryon Glider set bonus while I was not. This suggests that anti-proton weaponry is roughly equal in damage to Tetryon weapons + Tetryon Glider. Therefore, (AP + Tetyron Glider) > (Tetryon + Tetryon Glider). Subtract Tetryon Glider from the above, and all that's left is AP > Tetryon. I'll be happy test the latter with anyone fully spec'd for Tetryon to see if this holds up in practice.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
04-16-2012, 04:30 PM
3RRTPT 1B 1P 140/300
3RRTPT 2B 1P 147/300

1PT 2B 1P 59/300

OK now we are getting somewhere!
Uh, I thought those things were supposed to be rapid reload? They appear to be topping out at the same speed as photons. The only way to know for sure would be to have a ship with room for 4 of them and see if it goes above 150. If it does not, I am not really sold on transphasic, the minor amount of shield penetration would not be worth the drop in DPS (I estimate that even with +30% it will still only be 85% of the DPS).

The single photon test however is very interesting, it shows (for the frist time) that going from 1 to 2 launchers does not result in diminishing returns, in fact, with 3 DOF's, there are slightly increasing returns. For science guys that looks very interesting, for escorts, it does leave the slight problem of getting those shields to drop so the torpedoes have something to hit. Maybe tetryon gilder...

All I want is two polarized tetryon dual heavy cannon, is that too much to ask?
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