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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 71
04-15-2012, 07:15 AM
You know? As a cruiser pilot (engineer) that tanks and heals, the main reason I die lately is when an escort pilot on my team in a fleet action does something stupid and I am so focused on looking after people while tanking an immense mob they aggro’ed and drug to me that I forget to look after myself… Healers get no love and the short end of the stick in every PVE reward. DPS is all that matters. Cruisers need a buff.

At first I thought the RSP change would give me time to focus on heals while tanking too. The change isn’t really doing the job to help. I’ve jokingly stated that one of the reasons for the RSP change was to grant cruisers a buff (in PVP for example) vs. escort groups to get more people involved but in doing so they are nerfing the usefulness of healers too. There’s just enough truth in it to stick. No one wants to work as a team unless they have too anymore.

One of the biggest issues in the cruiser vs. escort argument is the fact that it goes against what people “expect” from watching the TV shows. A cruiser like the Enterprise was supposed to dominate the battlefield and only be threatened by escort type ships when encountered in numbers. This was even true of the Defiant, regardless of the writer infighting that occurred. One of the core inspirations of this game’s space combat, Star Fleet Battles, does a MUCH better job of bringing trek space combat to the fans than Star Trek Online seems to be able to accomplish.

The counter problem there is that Trek goes against typical MMO game design ideology and the Devs were afraid to break from the mold and potentially alienate the traditional gamer player base. Don’t laugh too hard, but I can’t help but think this is one of the reasons SOOOO many actual Trek fans ditched Star Trek Online in the early days. That is, it went against a fan’s expectations for the intellectual property as established by the shows and books even in ships.

Trek as an IP just wasn’t made to be a typical MMO game and it will always suffer for that here. I honestly think that if Cryptic had of built this game with an original IP and took a few more years (rather than just two) to work on content, that it would have been a success.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 72
04-15-2012, 08:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Element_0
You know? As a cruiser pilot (engineer) that tanks and heals, the main reason I die lately is when an escort pilot on my team in a fleet action does something stupid and I am so focused on looking after people while tanking an immense mob they aggro’ed and drug to me that I forget to look after myself… Healers get no love and the short end of the stick in every PVE reward. DPS is all that matters. Cruisers need a buff.
No. The stupid thing is what the game rewards. It makes no sense to buff Cruisers so they become great healers and great DPS machines at the same time. Now, I have nothing against the idea of introducing new Engineering Bridge Officer powers that don't provide healing and support, but boost the ships DPS instead. So you can choose to be an Escort-like DPS/Burst damage Cruiser, or a Healer Cruiser. But both - that just means Escorts are useless.

But even that wouldn't be necessary, if Cryptic would actually design Fleet Action rewards also based on healing provided, and would introduce game scenarioes where you need to keep some target alive and otherwise fail. Every class can try that - Escorts by killing the enemies very quickly, Cruisers by directly healing the target, and Science Vessels by debuffing enemies so they can't deal much damage and providing healing support to the target.

Quote:
One of the biggest issues in the cruiser vs. escort argument is the fact that it goes against what people “expect” from watching the TV shows. A cruiser like the Enterprise was supposed to dominate the battlefield and only be threatened by escort type ships when encountered in numbers. This was even true of the Defiant, regardless of the writer infighting that occurred. One of the core inspirations of this game’s space combat, Star Fleet Battles, does a MUCH better job of bringing trek space combat to the fans than Star Trek Online seems to be able to accomplish.
The problem ultimately is that STO tried to model Startrek ships in these classes Cruiser, Escort and Science Vessel and treat them as equals. But in canon, they simply aren't. A ship like the Intrepid? That's a Cruiser. The Oberth was a science vessel - an underpowered, apparantly even unarmed vessel. The Defiant was the only Escort. I'd even be willing to believe that it's firepower and stamina rivaled that of much larger ships - but it was a rarity ship, not a fundamental design class. And for Starfleets exploration mission, is was hardly adequate.

Escorts and Science Vessels should probably have been NPC ships in the first place. Or maybe low tier ships.

Quote:
Trek as an IP just wasn’t made to be a typical MMO game and it will always suffer for that here. I honestly think that if Cryptic had of built this game with an original IP and took a few more years (rather than just two) to work on content, that it would have been a success.
If Cryptic had gotten that much time, maybe. But they only had those 2 years. And even then - I don't believe Cryptic could have pulled it off. They are just too small. Their strength is delivering a new game in a rather short timeframe, complete with high customization options. That's the "gift" of their Engine. But beyond that - they can't do much. They never had the resources - manpower, tech, money - to bring more.

They still could have done a lot better stuff with those two years. Many things are not a question of time or resources - just what kind of design decision you make. They made some that weren't - in my opinion - good. But that's hindsight (mostly)...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 73
04-15-2012, 09:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_Trainor
Yes, you're exactly right, I base the opinions that I express on pure instinct, without ever having tried the ships in question.

There's nothing you can do in a Gal-X that you can't do better in another fed cruiser, because it's layout is essentially a slower assault cruiser with a pretty useless special ability in the lance and a reasonably handy standard cloak.
Whereas the Gal-R has a unique (for feds) layout that you can't replicate on another cruiser (for feds), in addition to saucer separation.
Neither is very good, but the Gal-X sucks more, imo.
The Ody can do anything a Gal-R can do, and whole lot more. And do it with more hps to boot.

The Gal-X fills a niche by being the only fed cruiser that cloaks. It's a small niche, but it is unique.

The Gal-R is just a poor mans Ody+1 decked out to tank.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 74
04-15-2012, 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post

But even that wouldn't be necessary, if Cryptic would actually design Fleet Action rewards also based on healing provided, and would introduce game scenarioes where you need to keep some target alive and otherwise fail. Every class can try that - Escorts by killing the enemies very quickly, Cruisers by directly healing the target, and Science Vessels by debuffing enemies so they can't deal much damage and providing healing support to the target.
Lord forgive me, you see I am assuming that Cryptic isn't stupid and might be limited in the way they can reward missions in the same way that dialogue / objectives accomplishments are limited for missions or episodes "due to limitations in the game engine itself". If that's indeed the case they literally can't do what you suggest so people are stuck making some kind of idea work within the current system based on DPS modifications. Cruisers and science ships really get the shaft in that case as they are incapable of competing in what amounts to a "shooter..."

[/quote]
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 75
04-15-2012, 11:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Element_0
Lord forgive me, you see I am assuming that Cryptic isn't stupid and might be limited in the way they can reward missions in the same way that dialogue / objectives accomplishments are limited for missions or episodes "due to limitations in the game engine itself". If that's indeed the case they literally can't do what you suggest so people are stuck making some kind of idea work within the current system based on DPS modifications. Cruisers and science ships really get the shaft in that case as they are incapable of competing in what amounts to a "shooter..."
An engine is not some static entity you can never change. Change costs time and resources, but is fundamentally is possible. And since they can already track healing done in PvP matches, I see no reason why couldn't track it in other game modes. Of course, yes, that may still be difficult and time-consuming, but hey, that's part of their job. Their job is not just to extract money from their customers via lockboxes, but actually use some of that money to make this game a better game, so more people have a reason to bother with gold subscriptions, C-Store items and lockboxes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 76
04-16-2012, 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
No. The stupid thing is what the game rewards. It makes no sense to buff Cruisers so they become great healers and great DPS machines at the same time. Now, I have nothing against the idea of introducing new Engineering Bridge Officer powers that don't provide healing and support, but boost the ships DPS instead. So you can choose to be an Escort-like DPS/Burst damage Cruiser, or a Healer Cruiser. But both - that just means Escorts are useless.

But even that wouldn't be necessary, if Cryptic would actually design Fleet Action rewards also based on healing provided, and would introduce game scenarioes where you need to keep some target alive and otherwise fail. Every class can try that - Escorts by killing the enemies very quickly, Cruisers by directly healing the target, and Science Vessels by debuffing enemies so they can't deal much damage and providing healing support to the target.


The problem ultimately is that STO tried to model Startrek ships in these classes Cruiser, Escort and Science Vessel and treat them as equals. But in canon, they simply aren't. A ship like the Intrepid? That's a Cruiser. The Oberth was a science vessel - an underpowered, apparantly even unarmed vessel. The Defiant was the only Escort. I'd even be willing to believe that it's firepower and stamina rivaled that of much larger ships - but it was a rarity ship, not a fundamental design class. And for Starfleets exploration mission, is was hardly adequate.

Escorts and Science Vessels should probably have been NPC ships in the first place. Or maybe low tier ships.


If Cryptic had gotten that much time, maybe. But they only had those 2 years. And even then - I don't believe Cryptic could have pulled it off. They are just too small. Their strength is delivering a new game in a rather short timeframe, complete with high customization options. That's the "gift" of their Engine. But beyond that - they can't do much. They never had the resources - manpower, tech, money - to bring more.

They still could have done a lot better stuff with those two years. Many things are not a question of time or resources - just what kind of design decision you make. They made some that weren't - in my opinion - good. But that's hindsight (mostly)...
In all fairness, there's at least 4 Defiants that have appeared on screen, that's not far off of Ambassador numbers. I imagine once the kinks in the Defiant were ironed out, and the Dominion war was in full swing, a ship that simple, relatively speaking, would be stamped out by the dozen. No labs, no holodecks, no extensive recreational facilities or cargo spaces, just moar pewpew.

You're deffinitely onto something with the way Fleet Actions are scored though, I took first in one earlier, and that had a lot to do with extend shields from some guy in a Galaxy who I was shadowing. Granted, it was one of those rare Fleet Actions you get where you form a team, and it's like you're in Sacrifice of Angels or something, and you're bossing through an enemy mob and look around to see three Gorn ships about to murder your face off, then from off camera a big ol' extend shields and barrage of supporting fire comes. That guy was probably not putting out anywhere near my DPS, and would have been penalised for it. But he was the reason I was putting out that DPS in the first place, because he allowed me to bite off more than I could chew. That's the kind of totally awesome cruiser piloting that's undermined by this RSP buff.

I'd like to reitterate something I touched on earlier though, RSP would be less of a problem if there was more than one counter, and I think DEM would be an ideal counter for it. Either making shields take more bleedthrough from DEM, or for DEM to litterally ignore it while in reversed polarity.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 77
04-16-2012, 08:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebeneezergoode
I disagree. Firstly, newbs are less likely to read patch notes, PVPers generally are. So we have a situation where the PVPers will catch on fast, and the people less inclined towards it won't.

We'll enter a situation, not unlike tactical team or emergency to shields, where RSP becomes essential in a competetive build. Sure, there are guys without TT and EPTS, it's usually the reason why something with monster shield and hull stats like the Oddy has can be suprisingly squishy. This is just another step towards "one build to rule them all", and if it is an attempt to level the playing field, it's a very lazy one.

Furthermore, science captains seem scarcer than they were, probably due in no small part to the viscious nerfing Science ships/powers have recieved in recent weeks and months. Sure, some'll jump in an MVAM or Starcruiser, but a lot'll just shelf their Science guy and roll a Tac or Engineer. But you deffinitely can't garauntee a subnuc in a pug, further more, copies of RSP carried willl certainly outnumber copies of Subnuc available.

GG Cryptic...

Edit: Also, the patchnotes are misworded, they say "slight" increase, as far as I know, you can push it as far as 19 seconds. That's well over 100%. "slight" is overly euphemistic.

Honestly... Due to the lack of Percentile Heals RSP is practically required for any Covariant shield setup. If you are running dinky shields or just Hull Tanking then it is not needed as much but the old two copies of EPTS idea always made me laugh. If I am dealing enough damage to tear down your shields even EPTS III is going to mitigate about 1 volley at the very best whereas RSP will actually stop my Alpha Cold if I am not a Sci Captain.

That said: Yeah... It was not suffering before. There is no real good reason to change it like this. Getting rid of the heal from Torps was good but making it last longer does not help the situation any. Also, Sci Captains have not been hurt by the ner***e only Sci BOFFs and Ships.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 78
04-16-2012, 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkuu_Akagan

Honestly... Due to the lack of Percentile Heals RSP is practically required for any Covariant shield setup. If you are running dinky shields or just Hull Tanking then it is not needed as much but the old two copies of EPTS idea always made me laugh. If I am dealing enough damage to tear down your shields even EPTS III is going to mitigate about 1 volley at the very best whereas RSP will actually stop my Alpha Cold if I am not a Sci Captain.

That said: Yeah... It was not suffering before. There is no real good reason to change it like this. Getting rid of the heal from Torps was good but making it last longer does not help the situation any. Also, Sci Captains have not been hurt by the ner***e only Sci BOFFs and Ships.
But that's it, it was a good "Oh, crap!" button to help soak up an alpha, but it didn't provide prolonged invulnerability, just gave you a chance to react and manouver,
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