Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 148
# 71
05-02-2012, 06:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelus
Some might call it empowerment...
Call what empowerment? Sexism?
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 148
# 72
05-02-2012, 08:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercuriciodide
That's not the main point the OP was making:



The "sexism is inevitable" rationale isn't supported by historical, and contemporary, evidence. In the ancient and pre-modern world men were frequently naked. The only thing about clothing is that it indicated status. Sailors, for instance, in ancient Rome, often worked on their ships in the nude. There was even a non-explicit illustration of that in my High School Latin book. Male nudity was once commonplace. In ancient Greece, the male body was considered ideal in terms of beauty, not the female, and male nudity in sculpture and pottery was common. In the ancient Roman city of Pompeii, the wealthiest home had humorous erotic paintings in the dining room!

Clothing mores are arbitrary, not an inevitable consequence of biology. One of the most sexist places on Earth today is one of the places where women are forced to cover up more than men. It's just as sexist to demand that women cover up more than men as it is to make them wear less than men. What's not sexist is having equality, as the OP was asking for. I would be happy with some options to make male characters sexier/prettier (like non-haggard faces), even if the NPCs used by the devs default to the typical brute/haggard male and cute female paradigm.
Humans are sexually dimorphic species. Regardless of the variations that social and historical forces impose there will be differences in behavior and appearance between the sexes. Asking for equality, in the sense of the same/similar options for everyone, thereby is inhuman. We shouldn't be equal in that over simplified way. We are equal in the sum total of our characteristics that push in some directions for one gender and others for the other. Overall we are all fundamentally the same but that's only the product of a more complicated equation with inputs across the whole spectrum of human experience. That experience changes through time to produces more differences between cultures but what does not change is a dichotomous relationship between men and women.

What we have in STO is an extension of that. Men and women presented differently but in keeping with Star Trek ideology those differences don't assume anything of the greater equality that lies between the sexes. Women may have a softer appearance, and on average tighter clothing, but unlike other forms of entertainment those are not pretenses for a sexist argument that establishes a style or even just an idealized look as an indicator for weaker principles, less intelligence, subservience, or antyhing else beside style itself. Even Orion women aren't made out to be inferior to their male counterparts just because they often have less material covering their bodies, or even superior because of it. It's an artistic statement, not descrimination, as it is just a reflection on gender differences that biology provides the foundation to and history the more intricate structure.

It's not sexist.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 148
# 73 New Carrier
05-02-2012, 09:00 PM
It is just me are dose it look like giant version of male body part in metal? Yea it has got to be the bigest ship in the game or will be soon..
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 148
# 74
05-02-2012, 10:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgonops View Post
Humans are sexually dimorphic species. Regardless of the variations that social and historical forces impose there will be differences in behavior and appearance between the sexes. Asking for equality, in the sense of the same/similar options for everyone, thereby is inhuman.
The majority of gender role differentiation is socially imposed. One example is the fact that boys and girls begin to speak lower and higher around age 8, well before their vocal production organs have differing sizes. Children are dominated by gender role differentiation in their socialization, and it begins before they're even born, with people decorating their rooms with arbitrary colors such as blue and pink.

Take the case of Spartan women. They were known to tell their sons "Come home victorious or don't come home". That's a far cry from the American stereotype of women being soft and nurturing.

Yes, men and women aren't the same. Testosterone does have the effect of increasing aggression. Women tend to dominate through social group connections.

But, you're frankly over-thinking this in an attempt to justify the sexism that's clearly apparent in this game. This is not a case wherein there is minor differentiation that's only in keeping with universal dimorphism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgonops View Post
We shouldn't be equal in that over simplified way.
It's simplistic to argue that there is a vast boundary between male and female. Clearly that's not the case for humans. There are many people who blur those boundaries. One example is Jamie Lee Curtis. She is biologically male, in that she has XY chromosomes, but she is also biologically female, in that her body does not react to testosterone. She considers herself female, despite having a male chromosomal makeup. Her appearance is a bit androgynous, but the lack of reaction to testosterone gives her a more female than male appearance overall.

Given the very real bridge between male and female in human biology and behavior, there is a strong case to be made for less divergence between the sexes -- as an option for crafting characters. Transgender, gay, bi, feminine heterosexual men, Tom Boy heterosexual women -- all are possible in our world.

Consider the fact that the majority of cross-dressers are heterosexual men who are considered more masculine than average in terms of everyday appearance, behavior, occupation, and physical build. I have one in my family who fits this description perfectly. Psychologists theorize that the desire to cross-dress stems from a feeling of being trapped in an overly rigid/artificial macho gender role. So, if the most "butch" men in our culture want to dress up in women's clothing, doesn't that suggest that our gender role rigidity is not in keeping with biology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgonops View Post
What we have in STO is an extension of that. Men and women presented differently but in keeping with Star Trek ideology those differences don't assume anything of the greater equality that lies between the sexes. Women may have a softer appearance, and on average tighter clothing, but unlike other forms of entertainment those are not pretenses for a sexist argument that establishes a style or even just an idealized look as an indicator for weaker principles, less intelligence, subservience, or antyhing else beside style itself. Even Orion women aren't made out to be inferior to their male counterparts just because they often have less material covering their bodies, or even superior because of it. It's an artistic statement, not descrimination, as it is just a reflection on gender differences that biology provides the foundation to and history the more intricate structure.
The skimpy clothing of Orion women is rationalized sexism. The lore says they actually have the power because they use their pheromones to dominate men, as far as I recall. The men are brutes. This is clearly heterosexual male fantasy, and it is sexist given that there is not parity. There are no races that have males as sex objects and brutish women. Brutish women exist in the real world, as do beautiful men. There are seductive men who have seductive poses and dance moves in the real world. The limitation of those to just women in STO has nothing to do with Star Trek lore/IP and everything to do with a narrow heterosexual male taste.

In the real world there are plenty of women with bad skin, wrinkles, and the like -- but you won't see them in this game unless you purposefully choose the "aged" complexion. Also, in the real world, there are men with smooth clear wrinkle-free skin that is also free of dark beard stubble. But, again, you won't see that in the game, at all. This is because of the heterosexual male fantasy that's typified by the "heroic" complexion. That one stands in stark contrast with the very smoothed make-up applied appearance of the female complexions.

I am not a prude. I am all for people having the option to make Orions in skimpy clothing. But, as someone who is not interested in creating female sex objects, I want the opportunity to create males who are equivalent in terms of sexiness. And no, that does not violate a tenet of human biology.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 148
# 75
05-02-2012, 10:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horus12 View Post
If one takes a close look at the various costumes in STO, you would see some very strange things. For example, take a look at the open jacket uniforms. When females chars have this uniform equipped, they show off a lot of skin, almost too much. But when this same uniform is equipped on a male char, there's an undershirt underneath it. Plus, female chars have so many uniforms that reveal so much of their bodies that more often than not, they look like they're working a street corner rather than being a Starfleet captain/admiral. Where's the skimpy uniform choices for the males? Or better yet, why not just make it so that everyone is mostly clothed (except for swimsuits which would be cool on Risa and Risa only). Either make it so that everyone can show equal amounts of skin (if they so choose) or keep everyone mostly clothed. Now granted the Mirror Universe uniforms were a little revealing in the show so there's not much you can do in THAT area but I'm sure there are other areas that can be addressed.
This MAY come as a surprise, so I will try and break this lightly . . . as simple as I can so that even a human would understand . . .

The clothing options for your characters are actually voluntary options. You do NOT have to wear the clothes you think are not fit for your idea of your character.

It is a diverse game set in a Star Trek universe, with many options for folks to set up their characters in many moods and environments. It is an MMO that is acting like, well, an MMO. They are doing a great job at it, too.

So my advice is to realize no one is putting a gun . . . sorry . . . disruptor . . . to your head and forcing you to look at or use the clothing you are questioning.

Also, in reference to your observations . . . mirror universe uniforms are indeed cannon. They match the shows. The only other option, which you did mention, is the open front uniforms . . . and they aren’t that revealing at all. Maybe your imagination is better than mine . . . or more perverse, most likely, but I do not see anything revealing at all about the open front uniforms on female characters.

Now as for the KDF . . . well . . . they are KDF . . . do not expect them to be conservative. Their attire is as fitting as it can get . . . and the Orion characters are cannon also so STO is again correct and doing a great job in that area also.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 148
# 76
05-02-2012, 11:08 PM
"with your shield or on it" and its not just spartans its many Greek subtypes

The Average Spartan woman could break the average modern American quarterback in half
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 148
# 77
05-02-2012, 11:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horus12 View Post
If one takes a close look at the various costumes in STO, you would see some very strange things. For example, take a look at the open jacket uniforms. When females chars have this uniform equipped, they show off a lot of skin, almost too much. But when this same uniform is equipped on a male char, there's an undershirt underneath it. Plus, female chars have so many uniforms that reveal so much of their bodies that more often than not, they look like they're working a street corner rather than being a Starfleet captain/admiral. Where's the skimpy uniform choices for the males? Or better yet, why not just make it so that everyone is mostly clothed (except for swimsuits which would be cool on Risa and Risa only). Either make it so that everyone can show equal amounts of skin (if they so choose) or keep everyone mostly clothed. Now granted the Mirror Universe uniforms were a little revealing in the show so there's not much you can do in THAT area but I'm sure there are other areas that can be addressed.
you ARE aware that this game is developed by men right?

Gamer Men to put not too fine a point on it.

So of course women will have more skimpy-ness to their costumes. Hell its tamer then what you find in other games.....like WOW

The female winter reveler costume, need I say more

and it goes beyond just games, Leia in return of the Jedi

most girls in Anime. Etc

the list goes on.

The truth is, the world is run by men, so sit back, relax and get used to it, and enjoy the hilarity of it all.

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 148
# 78
05-02-2012, 11:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
"with your shield or on it" and its not just spartans its many Greek subtypes

The Average Spartan woman could break the average modern American quarterback in half
I don't know about you, by I find that kind of hot.

*fans self*

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 148
# 79
05-02-2012, 11:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercuriciodide
Jamie Lee Curtis.[/url] She is biologically male, in that she has XY chromosomes, but she is also biologically female, in that her body does not react to testosterone. She considers herself female, despite having a male chromosomal makeup. Her appearance is a bit androgynous, but the lack of reaction to testosterone gives her a more female than male appearance overall.
Dude, that Jamie Lee Curtis thing is an Urban Legend, an OLD Urban Legend.

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 148
# 80
05-03-2012, 12:13 AM
And biologically impossible
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