Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
05-06-2012, 07:12 PM
If the good guys are Shon and Kurland, call me a "bad guy".
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
05-07-2012, 07:55 AM
Before I start, I'd like to establish this as coming from an avid fed player.

I am also, however, a big fan of DS9, and especially of the development the Klingons underwent during the latter half of that series. I consider the fact that the warriors Empire (though thankfully not Klingons in general) are presented as essentially space Orcs to be a great disservice. Their moral code isn't entirely foreign, it was created by human writers after all, and they are far from impossible to write sympathetically, as evidenced by Martok, Grilka, and a slew of other Klingon characters who appeared over DS9's run.

The main problem is it's hard to reconcile Klingon honor with the Empire's current actions. Once upon a time, the Klingons were driven to war with the Cardassians over the possibility of changeling infiltration, the destruction from that war led to their conflict with the federation, and directly led to the Cardassians being willing to allow the Dominion a foothold in the Alpha Quadrant. Not tossing blame, here, but that's the sort of thing many on the high council should still remember, having lived through the dominion war: the most dangerous mistake for the Alpha Quadrant defenders to make is let the federation and the empire come to blows under the threat of an imminent invasion.

And as one can see, not all Klingons agree with the actions of the Empire, as large numbers serve in Starfleet, and undoubtedly have a large colony somewhere for Klingons trapped within Fed space due to the war. Considering the amount of Klingons in starfleet, it's probably approaching second homeworld status by this point, which is something I'd love to explore it it ever pops up in the game.

So The way I think of it is like this: J'mpok is nuts. He's dishonorable, a bad tactician, and a crappy ruler in general, but he's shrewd enough to work the warriors of the empire into a blood-frenzy. I personally like to think that he actually conspired with an Undine or perhaps an Orion assassin when he challenged Martok, as they were alone in a room with no surveillance for a long while before J'mpok flung open the doors. And also that he turned on his accomplice by likely vaporizing them. First rule of assassination and all that.

J'mpok is not without his opponents in Worf and the house of Martok, and Saturday's Child indicated Ja'rod was likely to take a shot at chancellor at some point, or something to that tune. I would definitely be tickled if after all this time a Duras was the one to guide the Empire back down a path of honor. Imagine Worf's face!

Bottom line, if the empire wishes to restore it's honor, J'mpok has to go at some point. Just let us know when you get around to it, I've got a tactical officer who grew up on Qo'noS who'd be more than happy to punch J'mpok's ticket personally.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
05-07-2012, 10:12 AM
I would agree with some what is here with one small exception.
Captain Klag.
He rolls hard on the honor side. So yeah, people emulate that they see and what they see is corruption and hypocracy. When in Rome...

I blame the Emporor. He is not doing a very good job of returning the Klingon Empire to its past-glory or uniting the peoples. Fail!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
05-07-2012, 10:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlchemistiD View Post
Before I start, I'd like to establish this as coming from an avid fed player.

I am also, however, a big fan of DS9, and especially of the development the Klingons underwent during the latter half of that series. I consider the fact that the warriors Empire (though thankfully not Klingons in general) are presented as essentially space Orcs to be a great disservice. Their moral code isn't entirely foreign, it was created by human writers after all, and they are far from impossible to write sympathetically, as evidenced by Martok, Grilka, and a slew of other Klingon characters who appeared over DS9's run.

The main problem is it's hard to reconcile Klingon honor with the Empire's current actions. Once upon a time, the Klingons were driven to war with the Cardassians over the possibility of changeling infiltration, the destruction from that war led to their conflict with the federation, and directly led to the Cardassians being willing to allow the Dominion a foothold in the Alpha Quadrant. Not tossing blame, here, but that's the sort of thing many on the high council should still remember, having lived through the dominion war: the most dangerous mistake for the Alpha Quadrant defenders to make is let the federation and the empire come to blows under the threat of an imminent invasion.

And as one can see, not all Klingons agree with the actions of the Empire, as large numbers serve in Starfleet, and undoubtedly have a large colony somewhere for Klingons trapped within Fed space due to the war. Considering the amount of Klingons in starfleet, it's probably approaching second homeworld status by this point, which is something I'd love to explore it it ever pops up in the game.

So The way I think of it is like this: J'mpok is nuts. He's dishonorable, a bad tactician, and a crappy ruler in general, but he's shrewd enough to work the warriors of the empire into a blood-frenzy. I personally like to think that he actually conspired with an Undine or perhaps an Orion assassin when he challenged Martok, as they were alone in a room with no surveillance for a long while before J'mpok flung open the doors. And also that he turned on his accomplice by likely vaporizing them. First rule of assassination and all that.

J'mpok is not without his opponents in Worf and the house of Martok, and Saturday's Child indicated Ja'rod was likely to take a shot at chancellor at some point, or something to that tune. I would definitely be tickled if after all this time a Duras was the one to guide the Empire back down a path of honor. Imagine Worf's face!

Bottom line, if the empire wishes to restore it's honor, J'mpok has to go at some point. Just let us know when you get around to it, I've got a tactical officer who grew up on Qo'noS who'd be more than happy to punch J'mpok's ticket personally.
I think this is because you just can't view the Klingons as being one dimensional. Sure they have a love for honor and glory and whatnot, but they're more complex than that. I mean that's like saying all Canadians are hockey nuts, or all Brits drink tea and eat crumpets in Victorian clothing. Theirs a certain image that they present to the rest of the world, and its what everyone stereotypes them as, but that's not all there is. They have just as many different problems, emotions, and personal desires as we humans, its just their society is built in a different way and strives for different goals. You might say figures like Worf are idealists in this scenario, while J'mpok might be more a pragmatist; he's willing to violate the standards of his society in order to do what he thinks is best for it. Whether or not that is actually the case, it's probably how he rationalizes his actions. He uses Klingon Buzzwords like "Honor" and "Warrior Spirit" to garner support, just like an American President would use "Freedom" and "Democracy".
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
05-07-2012, 11:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catliketyping
If the good guys are Shon and Kurland, call me a "bad guy".
Hmmmm... I think you're right. Those two reminder me of PvE'ers that have tripped into a PvP match. The combat (PvP) Fed's, just sit back and finish thier steak and potatoes before they have to bail those two out.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
05-07-2012, 11:50 AM
It's those darned cloaking devices, they keep doing double service as de-caff coffee brewers. When the ship cloaks they can only get caffinated and hyper. There are times where the Klingons have been shown as "good guys" in this game, but usually that Ambassador "whats-his-name" usually ruins it (even his past self doesn't like him). It wouldn't be hard to have missions that will lean more towards honor than bloodshed "just-because". That would be good.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
05-07-2012, 09:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer View Post
Hmmmm... I think you're right. Those two reminder me of PvE'ers that have tripped into a PvP match. The combat (PvP) Fed's, just sit back and finish thier steak and potatoes before they have to bail those two out.
See, there would be a way to fix the Fed/KDF population imbalance.

Make Shon & Kurland boss-type enemies that we can blow up in KDF missions!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
05-08-2012, 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catliketyping
See, there would be a way to fix the Fed/KDF population imbalance.

Make Shon & Kurland boss-type enemies that we can blow up in KDF missions!
I just don't know if I have that much steak in my house for that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
05-08-2012, 10:40 AM
And of course give us a crack at the USS Kirk which has been STALKING me for 40 days now
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
05-08-2012, 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlchemistiD View Post
I would definitely be tickled if after all this time a Duras was the one to guide the Empire back down a path of honor. Imagine Worf's face!
Now THAT would be a funny FE. I'd play that one forever.

I also find that some of the problem is that real Klingon Honor does differ to a degree from Human (especially Federation) honor. There are many similarities, naturally, but there are differences written into their code (likely intentionally) that make some parts just a little bit alien. Cloaking devices, for example: In Ker'rat, I wish I'd had a dime for every time a Fed player called a KDF player a coward for cloaking - either before an attack, or as part of an escape. To some, letting your opponent kill you must be viewed as honorable (or they're just trolling because they didn't get the kill). Thing is, feeding an opponent your life and the life of your crew seems awfully dishonorable. You don't have to go the with whole Romulan Thalaron stuff, but fighting smart and fighting well can be the same thing, and are traits to be proud of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
And of course give us a crack at the USS Kirk which has been STALKING me for 40 days now
You too, huh?

-J
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