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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
05-18-2012, 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamid
Keep in mind there are stacking Sci Capt abilities which give large AoE resists and high aux HE also gives a large resists. Atm, there are far too many large heals in the game from boff powers, to sets, to doffs to be able to justify large resists. If they did away w/the heals, then resist spiking would be an alternative. But, that would change a lot about the design and require a lot of quality testing, planning, and communication of the when and why the changes are being made.
you justify large heals with large resists because ships have zero natural resistance (generally speaking). Other games have stuff like armor that naturally reduces incoming damage. In this game, you either react immediately or die.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
05-18-2012, 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by faithborn
you justify large heals with large resists because ships have zero natural resistance (generally speaking). Other games have stuff like armor that naturally reduces incoming damage. In this game, you either react immediately or die.
I agree it can be a twichy game, but w/the intro of Shield Dist/Hazzard Doffs, Team cooldown Doffs, and STF shields the need for coordinated cross healing went down. More recently the RSP changes and shield %18 boost consoles made this even moreso. This doesn't even count all the ways to boost power levels now. Personally, I'd hate to think of trying to break 5 good crossing Fed carriers running maco+3 part borg+ET doffs/bfi doffs/warp core eng doff.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
05-18-2012, 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom
Iirc the formula is:
1 - 1 / (1 + x/100)
with x as the resist value (skills+consoles+abilities). This gives a value between 0 and 1.

Example:

1 - 1/(1+900/100) = 0.9 = 90%, the resist of the ablative armor skill.
I believe it's even more complicated, there is after all a 75 % cap and only ablative armor gets to break that rule. I think my "Some Insight into STO Game Mechanics that Should be Assembled Together" thread in my signature has the complete formula, or a link to the complete formula.

There was a STOKed interview with Captain Geko: http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/5...iew-stoked-73/
Attached to the podcast are also some information notes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by STOKed
MATH

Co-Hosted by Al “CaptainGeko” Rivera (Lead Designer and “Keeper of the Maths”)

Why do diminishing returns exist?
Why does a 5% item only give 4.something%?
Explain the difference between Damage Resistance Magnitude and Damage Resistance?
Cap = 75%. WITH EXCEPTIONS (Intrepid Armor = 90%)

Curved Value = (1/(1-DamRes%Max))-1-(((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1)/(1+(MAG/((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1))+((MAG/((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1))^2)))
Dam Res=-((1/(1+SumOfAllDiminishedMags))-1)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
05-18-2012, 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by faithborn
except that the weird thing about it is that a lot of games use this approach with a few variations to keep people from becoming invulnerable. It's actually an extremely common formula. Games do this because after 50% damage reduction, effective health becomes substantially larger at smaller intervals. Health is doubled at 50%, 75%, 87.5%, 93.75%, 96.875%, so on and so fourth. Without diminishing returns, you could easily go invulnerable from just about anything.

Here are some other common variations:
League of Legends: ( 1 - ( 100 / ( 100 + armor) ) )
Guild Wars: fD = iD * ( (.5) * (armor-60)/40)
Indeed. 90 % damage resistance means that your enemies have to deal 10 times as much damage as they'd need without resistances. 95 % means 20 times as much damage is required for the same affect.

A cap and a diminishing return formula seems unavoidable if you don't want to hand out invulnerabilities all the time...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
05-18-2012, 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamid
I agree it can be a twichy game, but w/the intro of Shield Dist/Hazzard Doffs, Team cooldown Doffs, and STF shields the need for coordinated cross healing went down. More recently the RSP changes and shield %18 boost consoles made this even moreso. This doesn't even count all the ways to boost power levels now. Personally, I'd hate to think of trying to break 5 good crossing Fed carriers running maco+3 part borg+ET doffs/bfi doffs/warp core eng doff.
While the need for coordinated cross healing may have gone down, it still doesn't address the fact that the game is incredibly twitchy. Ships have almost no natural resistance to damage, as opposed to games where there is a passive mitigation ala Armor or Magic Resist. It creates a very interesting dynamic of 'ping-ponging' between alive and dead.

In a game with 0 intrinsic and passive defense, the 5% intrinsic and passive defense will be king.

Also, armor consoles SUCK so don't even mention them. They've never been a viable option for passive defenses.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
05-18-2012, 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by faithborn
except that the weird thing about it is that a lot of games use this approach with a few variations to keep people from becoming invulnerable. It's actually an extremely common formula. Games do this because after 50% damage reduction, effective health becomes substantially larger at smaller intervals. Health is doubled at 50%, 75%, 87.5%, 93.75%, 96.875%, so on and so fourth. Without diminishing returns, you could easily go invulnerable from just about anything.

Here are some other common variations:
League of Legends: ( 1 - ( 100 / ( 100 + armor) ) )
Guild Wars: fD = iD * ( (.5) * (armor-60)/40)
I find it wierd becuase it diminishes even if you just equip a single Armor piece.
Wierd to me, but not a system I dislike.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
05-18-2012, 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
I find it wierd becuase it diminishes even if you just equip a single Armor piece.
Wierd to me, but not a system I dislike.
Ah, it actually works this way regardless of almost all systems - % or # based - because the formula doesn't account for individual pieces. As a general rule of thumb, each effective value number should add the same amount of effective health to your base. If the system didn't automatically diminish them then it would become more effective to add a single high value and then get the rest as health.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
05-18-2012, 01:47 PM
I think a lot of ppl are confused and dont understand the fact that diminishing returns are per POINT that you have in resistance, not per console or power being used. We're lucky to have ppl in our community with the kind of knowledge to tell us what the exact formula is, because if we just relied on cryptic to tell us, or put a tooltip somewhere so we could figure it out, I think we'd always be in the dark.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
05-18-2012, 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt_Duck
just tell me how you get +700% damage and I'll buy you a drink
easy.
Step 1. remove all but 1 weapon from your ship as well as all tac consoles.
Step 2. record damage
Step 3. add all the weapons and tac slots back in
Step 4. record damage.

easily +700% possibly more.

now where's my drink? (next time remember to specify parameters lol)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
05-18-2012, 03:47 PM
The diminishing return formula is a good thing....

Honesty use it to your advantage....

People complain they need to be Jerky and have lighting reflexes in this game which is 100% WRONG.

Design your build to ROLL your defensive buffs...

Yes if you pop everything you can get your resists from 36 up to 50.... as you know that isn't a massive improvement. Frankly I love when people BLOW all there buffs at once... it means all I have to do is hold my offensive buffs until I see there buffs drop off... sometimes when I am being a **** (granted no one hears me but me) I count out loud... lol 5 4 3 2 1... and buff and 1 2 3 RESPAWN. lol
Don't be a blow everything before you pop in 4 seconds, chicks don't dig it.

However you could also ROLL your skills and ALWAYS have 30-40% hull resist up....

All you need to tank shields is in this game is

Emergency Power to Shields 1 (yes 1 is all you need)
Emergency Power to Weapons 1 (Yes to tank with)
Transfer Shield Strength

The Key is keeping your hull resists UP... so lets Consider running a couple Hull resists here.

Polarized Hull 1
Hazards
Brace For Impact (Which can also be made to be a Shield Heal these Days)
Aux to Damp / Or Aux to ID

The roll goes like this

Engage The enemy
Full Wepaon Power Mode
Engage - Emergency Power to Shields 1
Engage - Polarized Hull
Engage Aux to Damp or Aux to ID


15 Seconds In to Fight
Us TSS if needed.... if not wait for another 15 seconds
Engage Hazards


30 Seconds in to Fight
Switch Power to Shield mode
Engage Emergency Power to Weapons
Use TSS if you saved it


45 Seconds in to Fight
Be ready to use Brace for impact if you loose a shield facing
Use your aux to damp and ID
Slot a Sub Space Field Mod (from the devidian Mission and use it here if you need it


60 Seconds in to Fight
Go back to 10

With this roll your shield and weapon power are always North of 100... your hull resists are always up in the 40s... and you shouldn't have to worry to much about massive spike dmg killing you. Be ready to evasive if things get harry (not out of combat just to a better facing and get the massive defense bonus from evasive... and break arcs ect.)
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