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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
05-19-2012, 07:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by asardetemplari
I've been wondering if I should get the Ops Odyssey, and a person in my Fleet said get the Excelsior ship, it's a better fit for a Tac Captain. However...

1). I don't conform. It just ain't me.
2). I like being in the thick of it, shooting whatever is shooting me.
3). I also like using Engineer abilities and consoles to bolster my ship.
4). I really need out of this Escort and into something a little more... beefy.

I don't want it because it's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a ship that can soak up hits, and dish them out in return. "Oh well, Tacs belong in escorts." Yeah well, f*** you buddy. I have been in an escort since level freaking one and I hate it. I'm more comfortable in a slow turning, enemy blasting behemoth. I can fly a Defiant proficiently.

Additional Information:
-I don't PvP often on my Federation character. I mostly do STFs with my fleet or you know, random groups.
First consideration for any ship within a class should be "Would I enjoy commanding this ship"? If the answer is 'no', then it doesn't matter what stats it has...you will either perform below par because you have no drive to learn the ship, or you will hate every minute of gameplay spent in it, ruining your enjoyment of what you are doing. Probably both. If you don't like the Excelsior, then it isn't the ship you should be driving. Period.

Find a ship you care about, that you love the design of, and master it. If you love the ship you are flying, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks...it's -your- ship, and as long as you are happy with it, you'll fly it to its limits and beyond.

As far as the 'Tacticals belong in Escorts' thing, that is more a general guideline rather than a hard rule. If the game designers thought that, they wouldn't let any profession play any class of ship. An Engineer can make a formidable Escort commander, and a Science commander can make a cruiser a pretty scary unit on the battlespace.

What -is- true is that certain ships are designed to maximize the skills of certain types of commanders. A Tactical captain can make a good Cruiser captain, but will never be as good at taking damage as an Engineer in the same ship, anymore than that same Engineer would be able to match the damage output of the Tactical captain in the same Escort. That's just how both are trained. However, that does not mean Captains who prefer a more balanced mix of capabilities cannot be successful in ships that are other than their recommended class of ship...only that they will not be specialists (with the resultant drop in ability in the role they normally would fill being a given).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
05-19-2012, 08:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by danqueller
What -is- true is that certain ships are designed to maximize the skills of certain types of commanders. A Tactical captain can make a good Cruiser captain, but will never be as good at taking damage as an Engineer in the same ship, anymore than that same Engineer would be able to match the damage output of the Tactical captain in the same Escort. That's just how both are trained. However, that does not mean Captains who prefer a more balanced mix of capabilities cannot be successful in ships that are other than their recommended class of ship...only that they will not be specialists (with the resultant drop in ability in the role they normally would fill being a given).
Agreed.

Aesthetics definitely play a part here. I never bought any of the Federation c-store cruisers because I couldn't make sense of the design or couldn't bring myself to like them even after a few months.

The Assault Cruiser appeals to me because it works. I made it work, then realized paying $20 for something 'slightly' better makes absolutely no sense.

As a rule of thumb too virtually none of my characters conform to the usual "min max" rule.

My tactical is specced for maximum survivability and hull heals (and specialized in energy weapon criticals), my engineer is specced for maximum torpedo damage and scientific skills.

Despite the unusual builds I use, all of them work perfectly fine and its versatility that gives me a place in ESTF teams - not the premades or EliteSTF ones but the PUGs that always require a bit of extra flexibility from your ship in order to ensure mission success for everyone.

I'm also not continuing the cruiser discussion because I see no point being driven to purchase ships I don't need (my assault cruiser stays as is, its perfect for damage, tanking and engineering support). Now I fly a science vessel as a fast attack ship with riot control abilities, specced for maximum speed, durability, and torpedo firepower.

For anyone who says STFs are DPS oriented... well, I did fine in a cruiser and a science ship hitting way harder than anyone expects. And the Escorts are the least favourite of my ships.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
05-19-2012, 11:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoellefeuer
That means your allies will not have to endure enemy fire as long as they would if you were in an AC.
Yes, and what I'm telling you is that you are completely wrong.

1 Lt Tac Comm vs. 1 Lt Tac & 1 Ensign Tac will not suddenly see you doing that much more damage.

It really is not as much extra damage as you seem to think it is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoellefeuer
The most important thing is to blow stuff up in that case.
The ship class that blows stuff up is not Cruisers, and the Excelsior's slightly better tactical layout will not suddenly make you a damage dealer.

I'm sorry, but I run Elite STFs nightly.

I run them on teams that complete the optional with 6-8 minutes left to spare.

And after countless log parsings, different ship configurations the Excels I've run across do not out DPS the ACs, Dread and other Cruisers by any significant margin at base.

The Cruisers that significantly out-DPS other Cruisers all have a single thing in common: A Tactical Captain.



Quote:
Originally Posted by carmenara
The Assault Cruiser appeals to me because it works. I made it work, then realized paying $20 for something 'slightly' better makes absolutely no sense.
There is nothing wrong with the AC, it's a very good ship.

It only trades options vs. Excel and loses a few toys vs. the Dread. The Odyssey has a clear survivability and flexibility advantage vs. all of the others.

If you really like the look of the other ships, or have some reason for wanting to fly one - then go for it.

If your question is solely performance based, I think you can safely stick with the AC.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44 More wall of text.
05-20-2012, 08:52 PM
ok, one last time. Any extra amount of damage that kills a target means a target can kill your allies slightly less. even .01 seconds of less enemy fire means .01 seconds of less enemy fire .

I am not saying the excel is an escort. I am saying the excel has greater potential dps than the ac simply because of the lt com slot, but I shall say you state that it is an insignificant amount.

Stating you run stfs nightly does not indicate your superiority in the ac\excel comments. I can and have done the same thing. As I seem to mention in many other things. That bit of information is interesting, yet irrelevant. The important information is when all things are equal, what is more favorable for a given parameter.

Yes, a tac captain will always do greater dps in any given ship over any other class. I am not arguing that point. What I did aregue is that all things being equal, the excel can do more damage. This may be as you state, an insignificant amount, but it is present.

With excel v. the ac. The ac has the adv of more survivability, the excel more firepower, however insignificant that may be according to your parser. Neither are bad ships.

STFs are setup for dps to be the most important factor, at least for the optional. Based, on that, if you look only at performance, the excel will beat out in damage.

When you look at other factors, that damage lead may appear insigificant. Such as you examples: The AC can ALMOST have the same firepower as the excel. It is free for good measure, well if you want to use your ra token on it.

So yes, many people will take your view on it, based upon the cost considerations. It is referred to as a cost benefit analysis. Someone who believes in achieving maximium benefit is quite willing to pay through the nose for something.

looking at it one last time. Only looking at these 2 ships and their firepower.
excel = more damage than ac
excel = more cost to acquire than ac.

I think this is an accurate summary of our belief concerning this debate.
IF a person believes additional firepower is desirable, and is willing to spend time\money the excel wins.
Hoellefeuer

The Excel does not have enough of an advantage in damage to worth the cost, in addition to being squishier than the AC.
Ultimatum

As neither will be able to convince the other, I will not offer anymore replies to the ac\excel debate.

I suggest this. The OP has more than enough opinions on the excel and the ac (and he should have included them in the forum title for us ) And a smattering of opinions of other ships. Let's see if he has any questions based on the information he has recieved thus far and attempt to help in either further refining his ship selection or his boff\doff selection.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
05-20-2012, 11:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoellefeuer
ok, one last time. Any extra amount of damage that kills a target means a target can kill your allies slightly less. even .01 seconds of less enemy fire means .01 seconds of less enemy fire .
And if you can shrug off said damage for .01s, then it's irrelevant.

I've, not purposefully of course, tanked the Gate an the Tac cube at the end of ISE unaided on several occasions. Neither of those is dying any faster because an Excel has BFAW 3 up for 10s out of every 30s.

Or worse, APO 1 (which many Excels take) which is a fairly minor DPS increase as it only has 1/4th uptime.

I don't want to disparage the Excel, it's a very nice ship. I just think in general people overestimate the added offense of a single Lt Comm Tac BOFF power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoellefeuer
I am not saying the excel is an escort. I am saying the excel has greater potential dps than the ac simply because of the lt com slot, but I shall say you state that it is an insignificant amount.
How much more overall DPS?

I don't mean this sarcastically, I'm curious if you do have logs that show you a significant boost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoellefeuer
STFs are setup for dps to be the most important factor, at least for the optional. Based, on that, if you look only at performance, the excel will beat out in damage.
And IMO, The amount of DPS required is more than the lt comm slot will bring you.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoellefeuer
I think this is an accurate summary of our belief concerning this debate.
IF a person believes additional firepower is desirable, and is willing to spend time\money the excel wins.

If a person believes additional firepower is desirable they will fly an escort.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
05-20-2012, 11:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmenara
In short you don't need RCS Accelerators to boost tactical mobility. There are other better ways to achieve mobility without using a single RCSA or a single Injector Assembly, if you can make the ship build naturally fast even in 'combat trim'.
Can you give us the turn rate on your Assault Cruiser?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
05-21-2012, 12:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by danqueller
First consideration for any ship within a class should be "Would I enjoy commanding this ship"? If the answer is 'no', then it doesn't matter what stats it has...you will either perform below par because you have no drive to learn the ship, or you will hate every minute of gameplay spent in it, ruining your enjoyment of what you are doing. Probably both. If you don't like the Excelsior, then it isn't the ship you should be driving. Period.

Find a ship you care about, that you love the design of, and master it. If you love the ship you are flying, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks...it's -your- ship, and as long as you are happy with it, you'll fly it to its limits and beyond.

As far as the 'Tacticals belong in Escorts' thing, that is more a general guideline rather than a hard rule. If the game designers thought that, they wouldn't let any profession play any class of ship. An Engineer can make a formidable Escort commander, and a Science commander can make a cruiser a pretty scary unit on the battlespace.

What -is- true is that certain ships are designed to maximize the skills of certain types of commanders. A Tactical captain can make a good Cruiser captain, but will never be as good at taking damage as an Engineer in the same ship, anymore than that same Engineer would be able to match the damage output of the Tactical captain in the same Escort. That's just how both are trained. However, that does not mean Captains who prefer a more balanced mix of capabilities cannot be successful in ships that are other than their recommended class of ship...only that they will not be specialists (with the resultant drop in ability in the role they normally would fill being a given).

That's the point I try to get across to this one guy in my Fleet, and all he says is that "Your Odyssey will fail. Tacs can't tank. Get an Excelsior."

In the words of Lt. Commander Data: "To hell with our orders."

I took that into consideration and now I'm saving up for the Pack... If I can't tank, I can still help the team. I'm making an Odyssey that can severely put the hurt on whatever I'm fighting, be it Romulans, Borg, the Breen, Jem'Hadar, etc etc and also be a giant support boat. My girlfriend and I play KDF, using Vo'Quvs, and we manage pretty well in STFs. I took the framework of my Vo'Quv, applied it to the Odyssey (on paper) and I plan on using the Ops Odyssey due to the Eng consoles I can put on it. Her carrier, my Odyssey... We'll be a force to be reckoned with. I dare the Borg to rear their ugly robotic heads at us.

Also, I'm looking for more team heals. Can anyone provide me with a list? I'm looking for shield and hull heals. I can handle myself pretty well against the Borg, unless they attach that tractor beam of theirs on me. Even then, Polarize Hull renders their tractor beam invalid.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
05-21-2012, 01:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by asardetemplari
That's the point I try to get across to this one guy in my Fleet, and all he says is that "Your Odyssey will fail. Tacs can't tank. Get an Excelsior."

In the words of Lt. Commander Data: "To hell with our orders."

I took that into consideration and now I'm saving up for the Pack... If I can't tank, I can still help the team. I'm making an Odyssey that can severely put the hurt on whatever I'm fighting, be it Romulans, Borg, the Breen, Jem'Hadar, etc etc and also be a giant support boat. My girlfriend and I play KDF, using Vo'Quvs, and we manage pretty well in STFs. I took the framework of my Vo'Quv, applied it to the Odyssey (on paper) and I plan on using the Ops Odyssey due to the Eng consoles I can put on it. Her carrier, my Odyssey... We'll be a force to be reckoned with. I dare the Borg to rear their ugly robotic heads at us.

Also, I'm looking for more team heals. Can anyone provide me with a list? I'm looking for shield and hull heals. I can handle myself pretty well against the Borg, unless they attach that tractor beam of theirs on me. Even then, Polarize Hull renders their tractor beam invalid.
Very inspiring, and true. I have applied my AC's design concept successfully to everything from BoPs, Odysseys, science ships and even the Atrox carrier. They are extremely durable and quick, which can be surprising.

Team heals:

Cruisers with their MAX engineering loadout can use the following Engineer boff skills: -

Engineering Team (Large instant hull heal, 45 second recharge if I recall right)
Auxiliary to Structural (Moderate hull heal depending on aux power, + damage resistance bonus)
Extend Shields (Damage resistance and shield regeneration)

For a cruiser I normally have 2 copies of engineering team so I can spam them 15 seconds one after the other. One Aux2Struct (no need to duplicate, it recharges in 15 seconds flat) and one Extend Shields III which is very effective to keep friendly escorts alive.

A lot of people in the Elite STF discussions are saying 'healing is useless'. Well yes, if the above combination of Engineering powers can keep an escort alive while it's stationary firing DHCs in ESTF, then I think having a healing cruiser on the team is crucial. In a team that knows how to stay mobile and out of Borg torpedo arcs, you either make allied ships almost invulnerable vs beam fire using ES3, or else make things a lot easier for allied pilots who can throw caution to the wind and focus on generating max DPS with their front weapons.

It is in PUGs that the role of support cruiser becomes important to secure team victory, as you don't know whether the other pilots will work with you or the team. You will also have pilots who are less experienced in the team and by supporting them actively, the cruiser pilot achieves these: -

1) Creates a larger margin of error for success. When PUGs explode less, their effective DPS over time increases significantly, and less frustration means superior team morale. Team heals are responsible for fully 80% of my friend's list.

2) Creates an environment of 'watching each others back' using leadership by example. By mid-map you may notice the PUGs sharing their team heals with you or each other. Or even thanking your extend shields with their extra Tactical Team.

3) Other PUG pilots too are encouraged to learn to create mutually supportive ship loadouts, and if your cruiser is effective in both DPS and team support, they may want to PM you for some tips later on.

4) Imagine you're expecting the worst with a possibly 'newbie' team in Cure. Your attack doctrine is to stay as far away as possible from the enemy so as to evade aggro easily. Suddenly, you see the Blue healing beam heading towards you. You can now assault the enemy with MAX DPS with superior damage resistance and not fear enemiy fire.

5) It is with superior cruiser piloting that I learn how to increase the survivability and DPS for other ship types including Birds of Prey, science vessels and fleet escorts - and not just make them successful builds but give them the ability to support the team with buffs and repairs too. It's the idea that counts.

6) All the above, applied to multiple ship types across an entire task force or fleet, makes possible new Elite STF tactics. Flying escorts all the time is just boring.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
05-21-2012, 02:23 AM
Quote:
1) Creates a larger margin of error for success. When PUGs explode less, their effective DPS over time increases significantly, and less frustration means superior team morale. Team heals are responsible for fully 80% of my friend's list.

2) Creates an environment of 'watching each others back' using leadership by example. By mid-map you may notice the PUGs sharing their team heals with you or each other. Or even thanking your extend shields with their extra Tactical Team.

3) Other PUG pilots too are encouraged to learn to create mutually supportive ship loadouts, and if your cruiser is effective in both DPS and team support, they may want to PM you for some tips later on.

4) Imagine you're expecting the worst with a possibly 'newbie' team in Cure. Your attack doctrine is to stay as far away as possible from the enemy so as to evade aggro easily. Suddenly, you see the Blue healing beam heading towards you. You can now assault the enemy with MAX DPS with superior damage resistance and not fear enemiy fire.

5) It is with superior cruiser piloting that I learn how to increase the survivability and DPS for other ship types including Birds of Prey, science vessels and fleet escorts - and not just make them successful builds but give them the ability to support the team with buffs and repairs too. It's the idea that counts.

6) All the above, applied to multiple ship types across an entire task force or fleet, makes possible new Elite STF tactics. Flying escorts all the time is just boring.
found that to be very true.

when i fly my cruiser, i tank...i keep the aggro while others can deal dmg.
But that only works for infected, and more or less KA. The cure is a dmg run more than the other 2, and sadly most PUG's i encountered can't deliver that dmg. If the guy in the escort can't take out 3 raptors before they reach the kang...than no amount of healing can save the kang. And since tanking becomes irrelevant I'm pretty much useless in my cruiser.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
05-21-2012, 02:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raudl View Post
found that to be very true.

when i fly my cruiser, i tank...i keep the aggro while others can deal dmg.
But that only works for infected, and more or less KA. The cure is a dmg run more than the other 2, and sadly most PUG's i encountered can't deliver that dmg. If the guy in the escort can't take out 3 raptors before they reach the kang...than no amount of healing can save the kang. And since tanking becomes irrelevant I'm pretty much useless in my cruiser.
Cure Elite is ironically the reason for my switching to science.

If people can't shoot the Raptors down in time (or even better, multiple groups of Raptors and NeghVars due to premature cube detonation) then I will just spam repulsors and gravwells to give the PUGs time to get their destruction back on schedule. It gets the job done and that's all I care about.

Some CSE PUGs require 4 to guard Kang and 1 to shoot probes but a science ship with a veteran pilot has a better chance of saving them than a cruiser.

So how about a scientific cruiser next to combine both functions? Odyssey
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