Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
05-26-2012, 12:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by danqueller
So I will simply say this: Run the ship you love, and the ship you want to tell the story of. The ships are broken down by tier as an aid for players to guage what level of challenge the devs plan an encounter for, but ultimately the game is what you make it. A Galaxy-R can take on any mission another T5 cruiser can and perform well. If you love the Galaxy design more than any other T5 cruiser, then fly it and never doubt that you are flying -your- ship.

My two cents.
Someone mentioned putting roleplaying back into MMO gaming. Here's my ship design log, enjoy


Chief Engineer's log, Stardate 90006.46
Design and Development of the 25th Century Bajoran Deep Space Patrol Vessel


Three months ago the Bajoran Militia was granted permission to recover a Galaxy class starship spotted drifting in the vicinity of Bajor's 4th moon. It was unknown why Starfleet did not recover the vessel but judging from the vessel's condition, it was presumed the ship sustained heavy damage at the end of the Dominion Wars, written off as unsalvageable and subsequently stationed near Deep Space 9 to be used as an accomodations hulk for transiting Omega Battlegroup ground forces.

After several years in this role it was presumed proper orbital habitats were constructed, and the now redundant hulk towed away for disposal; with Federation shipyards rapidly pushing new and advanced prototype vessels to serial production, pre-Dominion era ship classes were generally found to be hindrances in the new generation Starfleet's order of battle.

With Bajor's acceptance into the United Federation of Planets, interstellar commerce in the Bajoran system reached unprecedented levels. What limited resources available to the Bajoran Anchorage's yards were ill equipped to deal with the daily routine of processing and servicing merchant vessels, much less simultaneously undertake the enormous task of breaking up a Federation capital ship for disposal.

Thus, this unknown warrior languished, until the 2409 Alpha Quadrant Defence Forces Review shed light on a major shortage of deep space patrol cruisers in this sector. With significant resources being fed into continuing and seemingly endless strike warfare operations in the Gamma Orionis Theatre of Operations, few ships of sufficient range and endurance were left behind to deter serious threats to internal security such as the True Way.

Indeed, over the past year or so we have noticed a vast increase in True Way activity against Federation interests in the Alpha Quadrant.

In response, Starfleet has authorized the Bajoran Self-Defence (Space) Forces to collaborate with the Starfleet Corps of Engineers to deploy a new force of deep space patrol vessels to safeguard the Bajoran Home Front from present and future threats to sovereignity and freedom of navigation.

Amongst the various proposals for creating star cruisers out of civilian liners to mimic Starfleet's Emissary class, and makeshift plans to convert merchant vessels into pseudo-fighter carriers, one proposal stood out amongst the rest of the 'redneck engineered' system defence vessels.

That plan simply involved reactivating the Bajor IV hulk, re-installing her warp core and overhauling her entire systems infrastructure to 25th Century standards. While expensive, the Galaxy class's limitations and capabilities are well known, and this proven design would be proof of the usual teething troubles associated with developing of modifying an entirely new type of vessel.

In order not to hinder Starfleet's logistics chain, alternative power and weapon systems were considered for use. The Bajoran Government, as well, hinted at the existence of classified storage areas for ship wreckage and technological salvage from the Dominion Wars.

Utilizing indigenous engineering methods, former Marquis engineers then devised a bold plan to equip 'their' new Galaxy Retrofit with Dominion propulsion and weapon systems in order to enhance combat effectiveness and maneuverability.

Christened the Chin'toka, both from the source of the majority of its retrofit materials, and to honor the sacrifices made by the Allied Forces during the Dominion War, this Galaxy Retrofit is a highly effective, multi-role deep space patrol vessel, a splendid flagship to pave the way for Bajor's newfound niche as the primary defender of free trade and navigation in the Alpha Quadrant.

OOC:

An unconventional ship build was made for this ship which provides both effective engineering support and maximum DPS for its role in leading groups in both STF and roleplayed Elite mission replays. After 8 hours of evaluation in a variety of challenging tactical scenarios, USS Chin'toka returned to DS9 for post-shakedown checks and reporting.

This ship has the near-invulnerable anti-torpedo defence, and the maximum firepower from my tactical cruisers. While she has only one offensive Tactical bridge officer skill, it can be spammed almost continuously with minimal cooldown.

Indeed, as observed in earlier posts, the additional Engineering bridge officer skill can be used to great effect for versatility purposes. This ship, to me, is not something you merely throw into battle to produce numerical results. You fly it with a plan not to merely destroy a set of targets but to dominate the battlespace from start to finish sweeping through a variety of player-managed attack and maneuver patterns while coordinating ownship offensive and defensive capability with that of allied vessels.

The Galaxy-R, you could say, is a "thinking man's" ship and it generally can be appreciated only by those who can think beyond the numbers shown on damage floaters... and be the Captain you always wanted to be
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
05-26-2012, 01:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmenara
Over the past few months I've more or less noticed the Gal-R being mentioned as the second-rate choice for an endgame C-store ship. One or two commenters even publicly aired their distaste for the Gal-R as "their pilots don't know what they're doing" or similar statements.
I think the problem is that for most things, some other ship can do it better. The only thing it seems to do better is that it's a little more spry than the Odyssey.

That said - I really enjoyed my Galaxy class at the Captain levels, and I am, believe it or not, thinking of actually picking this ship up. It isn't the Sovereign refit I've been waiting for with baited breath, but it looks like it's a neat balance of various abilities, and it has saucer sep, which is really the most important goodie on the Ody for me. I'm not interested in the Dreadnaught as the cannon seems to be very difficult to work with, and, although I anticipate slings and arrows for this, I think the third nacelle looks kind of silly and despite various rationalizations seems redundant/unnecessary from an engineering point of view.

Any comments/thoughts for someone considering getting this during the sale? Or after, since the C-Points stick around.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
05-26-2012, 01:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by danqueller
And, of course, the Odyssey has all of these

Seriously, you won't fly any ship in STO if you expect every ship to be able to do everything you saw some writer have the Enterprise (whichever version) do at some point in the series. No, you can't go find a sun and slingshot around it to destroy your PVP target back when they were level 1. No, you can't channel the entire output of the ship's engines into an insta-kill beam from your deflector array. No, you can't do the Picard Manuever or have phase cloaks.

But you also don't have to roll up a new character and purchase a new ship when your current one is destroyed. You don't have spend weeks in a repair yard or hospital when you are injured. You don't have to explain to your superior officer why you thought attacking a Klingon ship would be 'fun and challenging, and would be l33t!', and why you should be considered an Officer at all. And you certainly don't have to accept whatever ship Starfleet assigns you and do whatever missions they send you on without an option to decline.

So perhaps the things in the game that are sacrificed to gameplay and balance aren't so bad?
The way I usually justify it is that the bridge officers have certain specialties and qualifications for specific maneuvers and actions. So while your BOffs may not have Tractor Beam, that doesn't mean the ship doesn't have it, it means they aren't qualified to use it in a battle. If I recall correctly the Enterprise didn't use tractor beam in battle much (if at all) anyway, let alone make a micro black hole, so arguably the ships in STO have abilities the Enterprise didn't.

Plus they usually had the span of a commercial break for their officers (or, usually, Data, if the threat of the week incapacitated everyone else) to formulate their genius plan to save the world, whereas you only have a few seconds. Just something to think about.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
05-26-2012, 08:45 AM
Too bad they can't change that Ens slot to Universal, or better yet drop the Ens slot and make the Sci slot a LtComm

Eng + + + +
Eng + + +
Sci + +
Tac + +
Uni +

- or -

Eng + + + +
Eng + + +
Sci + + +
Tac + +
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
05-26-2012, 10:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by danqueller
And, of course, the Odyssey has all of these

Seriously, you won't fly any ship in STO if you expect every ship to be able to do everything you saw some writer have the Enterprise (whichever version) do at some point in the series. No, you can't go find a sun and slingshot around it to destroy your PVP target back when they were level 1. No, you can't channel the entire output of the ship's engines into an insta-kill beam from your deflector array. No, you can't do the Picard Manuever or have phase cloaks.

But you also don't have to roll up a new character and purchase a new ship when your current one is destroyed. You don't have spend weeks in a repair yard or hospital when you are injured. You don't have to explain to your superior officer why you thought attacking a Klingon ship would be 'fun and challenging, and would be l33t!', and why you should be considered an Officer at all. And you certainly don't have to accept whatever ship Starfleet assigns you and do whatever missions they send you on without an option to decline.

So perhaps the things in the game that are sacrificed to gameplay and balance aren't so bad?
How would being able to use the Saucer unbalance the game? You'd be using it the same way the AI uses it. The MVAM Prom can switch between the 3 parts in shorter cool time. Staying in the section of choice all the time wouldn't unbalance anything either. It's a convenience thing when going around sector space and just wanting to start the fight separated. It doesn't help that the cooldown timer doesn't count, unless you're in space. $20 for this, when the PROM and ODD do things better. Makes it pointless.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
05-26-2012, 06:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtakuboyT View Post
Too bad they can't change that Ens slot to Universal, or better yet drop the Ens slot and make the Sci slot a LtComm

Eng + + + +
Eng + + +
Sci + +
Tac + +
Uni +

- or -

Eng + + + +
Eng + + +
Sci + + +
Tac + +
Indeed I have thought of similar things. It's interesting how a single Ensign boff slot can have a huge effect on the ship's potential.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
05-26-2012, 06:18 PM
I don't like the argument that "the Galaxy-R can shine if you know how to use it". The Star cruisers shine much brighter if you use them the same way. So do assault cruisers. The lockbox cruisers are the worst offenders though, being miles ahead of any other Fed cruiser. The D'kora is a Vor'cha on PCP for example. It effectively has five tactical consoles! (3 ordinary, plus UBM adds 1 energy and 1 projectile console for FREE)

The Galaxy-R is in sore need of an upgrade. It costs money to use unlike the assault and star cruisers, and yet it's weaker than them in every way that matters. Saucer sep does nothing for the ship. "More turn" is worthless with such crappy damage potential. This is what the Gal-R needs in order to be competitive:

- Universal Ensign
- 3 Tactical consoles, 3 Science consoles, 4 Engineering consoles

At least then it will be slightly better than either the Assault or star cruisers (with turn rate as the tradeoff), and it will be balanced by the fact that it still costs real money to own.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
05-26-2012, 09:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgotten-Nemesis View Post
I don't like the argument that "the Galaxy-R can shine if you know how to use it". The Star cruisers shine much brighter if you use them the same way. So do assault cruisers. The lockbox cruisers are the worst offenders though, being miles ahead of any other Fed cruiser. The D'kora is a Vor'cha on PCP for example. It effectively has five tactical consoles! (3 ordinary, plus UBM adds 1 energy and 1 projectile console for FREE)

The Galaxy-R is in sore need of an upgrade. It costs money to use unlike the assault and star cruisers, and yet it's weaker than them in every way that matters. Saucer sep does nothing for the ship. "More turn" is worthless with such crappy damage potential. This is what the Gal-R needs in order to be competitive:

- Universal Ensign
- 3 Tactical consoles, 3 Science consoles, 4 Engineering consoles

At least then it will be slightly better than either the Assault or star cruisers (with turn rate as the tradeoff), and it will be balanced by the fact that it still costs real money to own.
First off, none of the Lockbox ships are Federation ships. You can't just go and buy them from the Fed Spacedock, and (if I am not mistaken), Klingons have an equal opportunity to fly these ships. And you can end up spending many more C-Points attempting to gain these ships than even an Odyssey costs, so it's hard to compare them to a ship that can be purchased for a fraction of the cost.

Also, claiming the Galaxy-R is weaker than the Star Cruiser or Assault Cruiser 'in every way that matters' is a pretty relative statement. The Star Cruiser is a science cruiser, while the Assault cruiser is a tactical cruiser. This is borne out in their BOFF and console allocations, while the Galaxy-R is an Engineering cruiser. Perhaps to a Tactical or Science captain the Assault or Star Cruisers seem superior 'in every way that matters' to them, but as an Engineer captain, I would select the Galaxy-R over them because my role is -tanking-, not damage output or control. And the Galaxy-R is superior to those other two classes in this role.

With 1000 more hull and more Engineering BOFF slots, this ship will take a pounding. Not only that, but it adds on the option of saucer seperation. This lets the commander decide on the spot if they want to sacrifice a slight amount of tanking for improved manueverabilty and an additional phaser bank. If they don't want to, then they can keep the ship together and enjoy the advantage in durability. This is an option not enjoyed by the Assault Cruiser or Star Cruiser, and makes this ship slightly better than those two classes in regards to flexibility/ability to respond to circumstances.

The proposal to -add- a console slot above and beyond that of any other cruiser except the Odyssey would not bring this ship on par with its stablemates, but make it equivilant to a ship that costs more than itself. The universal station would be wasted, as the only captains who are going to purchase this ship on stats alone are going to be Engineering captains, and that means the ensign slot is going to be used for an Engineer anyway. Adding both these features would almost certainly drive the cost of the ship up to the same level as that of the ship it would be mimicing...the Odyssey, removing yet another reason to use a Galaxy-R instead of that class of ship (yes, 400 c-points can be a deciding point when someone doesn't have 2000 c-points, or wants something else to go with the Galaxy-R purchase). Indeed, this ship should be compared to the only other T5 cruiser in its price range...the Excelsior-Refit. In this, it has superior tanking ability for a decreased tactical ability, and the option to gain -more- manueverability and base firepower than the Excelsior by saucer seperation. Indeed, the only reason the Excelsior stays equivilant in value to the Galaxy-R is its transwarp drive, an ability that is advantageous outside of combat but with no advantage whatsoever in combat itself, and that this ability does not take up a console slot.

In summary, I don't see the Assault Cruiser or Star Cruisers as superior to the Galaxy-R in Engineering at all (though they do have the advantages for Tactical and Science captains, respectively), and the Galaxy-R has several advantages that, while you may dismiss them personally, do have value and can be utilized by other captains. Also, trying to make this ship an Odyssey will result in it becoming an Odyssey and remove the Galaxy-R's own place in the game as a less-costly Engineering cruiser (compared to the only other endgame Engineering cruiser). That the ship does not appeal to some captains does not make the ship substandard, but rather simply means those captains would be better off in one of the other cruisers designed for their own preferences and skills. If anything, the Galaxy-R should only receive a minor improvement, such as a 1.1 shield rating, or a built-in reduction in recharge time for slipstream drive travel (similar to that of the Omega Impulse Engine). Anything greater will simply result in the ship becoming a dreadnaught-class ship instead of a battlecruiser-class as it stands now, with the increase in cost to match.

My further two cents on the subject.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
05-27-2012, 12:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by danqueller
My further two cents on the subject.
Hate to disappoint you, but your two cents aren't even worth that much. It seems like you haven't ever used the ships you're talking about. Go and try out a Star cruiser, an Assault cruiser, an Excelsior and a Galaxr-R for a few months and then come back and tell me that the Galaxy-R is still as good as the other three in its own area. I have used all four at different times in the last two years and I can tell you that the Galaxy-R is outclassed by each of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danqueller
First off, none of the Lockbox ships are Federation ships. You can't just go and buy them from the Fed Spacedock, and (if I am not mistaken), Klingons have an equal opportunity to fly these ships. And you can end up spending many more C-Points attempting to gain these ships than even an Odyssey costs, so it's hard to compare them to a ship that can be purchased for a fraction of the cost.
You can still farm XII purple consoles and ultra rare doffs (via the personnel officer) to raise enough cash to buy a lockbox ship. I did that for both and didn't waste c-points or real cash. Are there enough of these ships on the exchange to satisfy every player who wants one? No. Are there enough to satisfy the players who possess the intelligence and determination to raise the cash to buy one? You bet. I see D'koras all over the place. They may be "rare" ships, but that doesn't make them any less overpowered. They make the Odyssey and Bortasqu' look pathetic by comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danqueller
The Star Cruiser is a science cruiser, while the Assault cruiser is a tactical cruiser. This is borne out in their BOFF and console allocations, while the Galaxy-R is an Engineering cruiser. Perhaps to a Tactical or Science captain the Assault or Star Cruisers seem superior 'in every way that matters' to them, but as an Engineer captain, I would select the Galaxy-R over them because my role is -tanking-, not damage output or control. And the Galaxy-R is superior to those other two classes in this role.
Players don't fly Star Cruisers for control. Star cruisers are useless at control, but are uber at tanking. Better than the Galaxy-R. Why? Because of:

Polarize Hull
Hazard Emitters
Transfer Shield Strength

Know what these have in common, besides being science powers? They do not have a shared cooldown with Engineering team or Emergency to Shields.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danqueller
With 1000 more hull and more Engineering BOFF slots, this ship will take a pounding.
1000 more hull is meaningless. A drop in the bucket. And by "more Engineering BOFF slots", you mean an engineering ensign. Which can have engineering team and emergency power abilities that overlap with your higher level abilities, making the BOFF useless when compared with a science or tactical ensign.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danqueller
Not only that, but it adds on the option of saucer seperation. This lets the commander decide on the spot if they want to sacrifice a slight amount of tanking for improved manueverabilty and an additional phaser bank.
No, they sacrifice an ENORMOUS amount of tanking for improved maneuverability that they don't even need, and an additional phaser bank that does pathetic damage and will always get disabled in PvE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danqueller
If they don't want to, then they can keep the ship together and enjoy the advantage in durability. This is an option not enjoyed by the Assault Cruiser or Star Cruiser, and makes this ship slightly better than those two classes in regards to flexibility/ability to respond to circumstances.
As I just demonstrated above, the Assault and Star cruiser miss out on an ability that is effectively useless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danqueller
The proposal to -add- a console slot above and beyond that of any other cruiser except the Odyssey would not bring this ship on par with its stablemates, but make it equivilant to a ship that costs more than itself.
In what way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by danqueller
The universal station would be wasted, as the only captains who are going to purchase this ship on stats alone are going to be Engineering captains, and that means the ensign slot is going to be used for an Engineer anyway.
The statement you just made is completely asinine. Everyone on this forum will become dumber for reading it. I'm an engineering captain. I use a Galor with the universal officer as a Tactical officer. So I have a tactical Lt. Commander and a tactical Lieutenant. Your statement in addition to being asinine, has now been proven false.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danqueller
Adding both these features would almost certainly drive the cost of the ship up to the same level as that of the ship it would be mimicing...the Odyssey, removing yet another reason to use a Galaxy-R instead of that class of ship (yes, 400 c-points can be a deciding point when someone doesn't have 2000 c-points, or wants something else to go with the Galaxy-R purchase).
No it wouldn't. The Odyssey has a Universal Lieutenant Commander. Do you have any idea how much more valuable that is compared to a universal Ensign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by danqueller
Indeed, this ship should be compared to the only other T5 cruiser in its price range...the Excelsior-Refit. In this, it has superior tanking ability for a decreased tactical ability, and the option to gain -more- manueverability and base firepower than the Excelsior by saucer seperation.
Saucer sep does not improve the Gal-R's base firepower, it only improved weapon energy. If you're already at 125 before you separate, you'll still be at 125 after you separate. You don't know what you're talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danqueller
Indeed, the only reason the Excelsior stays equivilant in value to the Galaxy-R is its transwarp drive, an ability that is advantageous outside of combat but with no advantage whatsoever in combat itself, and that this ability does not take up a console slot.
No, the Excelsior stays equivalent in value to the Galaxy-R because Cryptic has not set it at a higher price when they should have because it is just plain better. The Lt. Cmdr tactical officer and the third tactical console are the Excelsior's biggest assets. Don't believe me? Look up the prices of Very Rare Mk xii tactical consoles. Now look up the prices of Engineering and Science consoles of the same rank and rarity. You'll find Tactical consoles are on average, more valuable than any other type.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
05-27-2012, 01:11 AM
I think this discussion is missing the point and has went way off track.

If we wanted uberships we will be purchasing other ships. Many of us who support this thread already own the $25 ships or ships which already have flawless builds for both PvE and PvP.

The Galaxy R is, once again, not intended to compete along the lines of "maximum everything". This thread is a 'Last Hurrah' for a ship type that's rapidly, in the STO universe being superceded by super-capital ships and a whole new generation of deadly fast attack "escort vessels".

The argument about which ship is better than the other is invalid and has no purpose whatsoever. Unless we are all Tellarites I don't even see any sort of entertainment value derived from mincing each other's words.

I wrote the idea for this thread as a naval enthusiast who adores not the new-fangled uber-weapons of tomorrow, but the soldiers of yesterday who fought and died on the battlefield so that the Federation as we know it in STO today can move on to the next era of starship design.

This thread is the final word for a ship class that may not ever see the limelight again, instead relegated to support roles in the modern STO battlespace. However, as we can all prove, this ship is not as helpless as it looks.

This ship is not a liability to a task force that flies and works together. It still has a role to play in STO.

There are other things to nitpick about and there are many other ships to dissect and analyze and relegate to obsolesence.

If the Excelsior remains a viable front-line cruiser even up to the late 24th Century, then the Galaxy too deserves its place in Starfleet history.

It is also from my personal gameplay experience over this weekend that I did enjoy having the one extra Engineering slot of the Gal-R over the one extra Tactical slot of the Sovereign. Which is great for being able to support two weapon types at once. But on the Galaxy there's just one tactical team and one offensive tactical power and it's incredibly fun channelling every single buff into that one skill, chopping down its recharge time and basically firing everything we got and having a heck of a time at it.

Which is exactly what we're here to do. Seriously, it's a bonus that the Gal-R is as good as it turned out to be. If I had things my way (naval enthusiast/historian background) and all, I'll have cruisers like this completely outclassed by Raptors and other fast attack craft. Or super-capital ships of the XXV Century.

Which is probably the case in PvP. But, there is much more to do in STO than get caught up in min-maxing. Everyone can min-max on game guides and Fleet veteran coaching.

But picking a ship, flying it, and writing a story based on it is something special. And just for that inspiration for putting "Star Trek" back into STO, the Galaxy Retrofit has completely satisfied me.
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