Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 121
03-22-2009, 02:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon113 View Post
Im afraid I can not agree with your assumption that the Borg are stranded Zombie. For all intents and purposes the Borg have treanswarp capability and if I do recall corectly in Voyager they still have one more of those wormhole cluster nexus thingies. Or is it 2? Even without a queen the borg would undoubtedly have backups in case unimatrix 01 went down. Im afraid with all the data that the federation got from Voyager it would seem to be a tragic tactical error of the federation to dissasemble the taskforce in light of the knowledge they have gained from seven and the rest of her crew.

Im not saying that this is a bad choice by the developers and that it shouldnt of happened, In fact it seems to follow along with the direction starfleet is going, making rash and not intelligent decisions because they are blinded by the aftermath of the dominion war and the unstable situation with the romulans not to mention the ongoing tention with the klingons and khitomer. I must applaud the developers on their story line it seems to be true to form and quite logical.
Guys, you're missing the point both Zombie and I are making. It's not about whether the Borg will come back or whether they have the capability to do so. Since we see them in the trailer, clearly they find some way to do so. That's a given. What you're not thinking about is Starfleet's perception of the Borg's capability.
Even if Voyager had only destroyed the transwarp hub, Starfleet would still probably take this stance. Seven of Nine stated in the episode that there were only 6 hubs in the galaxy, yet the visual showed only 4, one for each quadrant. The Alpha Quadrant one looked less developed than the others, which makes sense as the Borg have not infiltrated that on any scale. Voyager destroyed the Delta Quadrant one, which we can assume would be the most important and first one built (due to the Delta Quadrant being the Borg's home territory). Destroying even one hub kills so many conduits that you severely limit Borg transwarp transportation alone, but since Voyager seems to have destroyed a very important one, it would be very hard for the Borg to send the majority of their forces from the Delta Quadrant to the Alpha. They might be able to send ships back to regroup in the Delta, but sending an attack force from the Delta doesn't seem likely.

And this is not even taking into account the virus. Granted, the Borg will adapt quickly to it, but in the meantime it seems to have severely scrambled their ability to communicate and coordinate, making those far flung ships that aren't in the Alpha Quadrant somewhat confused and without a commanding authority.

So you can kind of see why Starfleet thinks the Borg are at least wounded badly, and will take some time to recover, let alone get their forces here. That's not to say they have absolutely no defences and no plan should a Borg incursion occur. They simply don't see it as efficient in keeping around a specifically Anti-Borg taskforce when the ships could be used for more general defense, research, or science/diplomacy. Now granted, we all know this is a mistake on their part, but if you want a better analogy than the ones that are getting thrown around in this thread, it'd be like the U.S. keeping the Star Wars program and continuing to fund it after every other country dismantled their ICBM's (an almost impossible scenario, I know, but this is supposed to be hypothetical). Is it a nice, advanced defense to have around? Sure. Could someone potentially build another ICBM? Probably. But there's no way we can effectively spend towards and anticipate every single threat that comes at us, so we have to pick and choose for the current scenario.

Remember, don't look at this from our informed 3rd-person omniscient perspectives. Look at it from the shoes of Starfleet brass, and what's the best thing to do with the information you currently have.
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 122
03-22-2009, 03:48 PM
Have we ever thought that they actually did... I mean come on, for all we know there is a secret anti borg fleet. Maybe they were just saying that so that they could cover up for some of their more inappropriate actions like producing nano bots of their own to test out weapons on/introducing nano bots into a human/other species body, and perfecting ways to remove them... Remember the federation does have a dark side...
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# 123
03-22-2009, 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagash303 View Post
Voyager got stranded 75.000 lightyears away. They were in middel of Borg space in last episode so (I am guessing) 50.000 ly still to go. A distance we consider pretty safe after the collapsed transwarp center. Borg would have to use normal Warp for travelling that distance, so they better start the journey today for arrival in 2410.
One potential flaw in this reasoning, is the assumption that the Borg's only means of getting to the Alpha quadrant is to use 'normal Warp'. It is assuming that Star Fleet knows everything about the Borg and thus can be assured that they could never find another way to arrive at the Alpha Quadrant sooner.

In a world where time travel is not only possible, but where history has shown that other beings like to manipulate the timeline -- ie Sphere Builders -- I would say that the road of caution would be the better travel. Also, the Borg have demonstrated to not only be Adaptive, but rather versatile. Add to this, that an ex-Borg is adimately stating that the threat still exists, and I can see the folly of Star Fleet's decision.

A real life parallel would be the view about post WWI defeated Germany. People were convinced that Germany was no longer a threat to the world, and as history demonstrated, that was proven wrong in just two decades more or less.

There clearly is a case to be made that Star Fleet has made the wrong decision - completely independent of our knowledge that they do indeed come back.

Not intended to be insulting by any means, but I think it is ironic that we see a parallel division among the Forum posters -- which lends credence to Star Fleet reaching the same decision.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 124
03-22-2009, 05:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon113 View Post
Im afraid I can not agree with your assumption that the Borg are stranded Zombie. For all intents and purposes the Borg have treanswarp capability and if I do recall corectly in Voyager they still have one more of those wormhole cluster nexus thingies. Or is it 2? Even without a queen the borg would undoubtedly have backups in case unimatrix 01 went down. Im afraid with all the data that the federation got from Voyager it would seem to be a tragic tactical error of the federation to dissasemble the taskforce in light of the knowledge they have gained from seven and the rest of her crew.

Im not saying that this is a bad choice by the developers and that it shouldnt of happened, In fact it seems to follow along with the direction starfleet is going, making rash and not intelligent decisions because they are blinded by the aftermath of the dominion war and the unstable situation with the romulans not to mention the ongoing tention with the klingons and khitomer. I must applaud the developers on their story line it seems to be true to form and quite logical.
See these are story oriented logical points I can appreciate the value in. I would say it’s not my assumption but Starfleet brass prioritizing active threats verses what by their information would seem like a historical threat. In reality an organization the size of Starfleet and without the hindrance of even a budget to worry about probably wouldn’t need to dismantle a taskforce like this but they may not want their best people spending time and effort there when there are more pressing matters.
Again it’s not the move I would make but it does seem like it’s being done on good faith with the best information they have available at the time.

We have the hindsight and Meta-view of knowing the Borg will be in the game but the Developers could have just as easily said “eh, we don’t like the Borg, they’re not making it in to the game, we’re just going to leave the story of Endgame in place” and then 7of9 rightfully looks like an alarmist nut with a personal obsession that’s clouding her view. If the trailer showed the sphere builders or a massive invasion by Species 8472 then we would all be saying “how dumb is Starfleet for not knowing they were coming back? “7 years, 24 years, 75 years are just numbers on a screen to us but if you actually put yourself in the shoes of an admiral who just looked at a report that says: 11 years 4 months, 1 week, 3 days and still no sighting but tomorrow could be the big day, I feel it! You would probably have a very hard time not feeling like your people are actually on vacation and you look like the idiot in charge of boogie man patrol.
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# 125
03-22-2009, 05:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
See these are story oriented logical points I can appreciate the value in. I would say it’s not my assumption but Starfleet brass prioritizing active threats verses what by their information would seem like a historical threat. In reality an organization the size of Starfleet and without the hindrance of even a budget to worry about probably wouldn’t need to dismantle a taskforce like this but they may not want their best people spending time and effort there when there are more pressing matters.
Again it’s not the move I would make but it does seem like it’s being done on good faith with the best information they have available at the time.

We have the hindsight and Meta-view of knowing the Borg will be in the game but the Developers could have just as easily said “eh, we don’t like the Borg, they’re not making it in to the game, we’re just going to leave the story of Endgame in place” and then 7of9 rightfully looks like an alarmist nut with a personal obsession that’s clouding her view. If the trailer showed the sphere builders or a massive invasion by Species 8472 then we would all be saying “how dumb is Starfleet for not knowing they were coming back? “7 years, 24 years, 75 years are just numbers on a screen to us but if you actually put yourself in the shoes of an admiral who just looked at a report that says: 11 years 4 months, 1 week, 3 days and still no sighting but tomorrow could be the big day, I feel it! You would probably have a very hard time not feeling like your people are actually on vacation and you look like the idiot in charge of boogie man patrol.
Again, I disagree with your stance that the Borg Threat is a 'tinfoil' theory at this point in the timeline.

The Borg was an apocalyptic threat -- as they could destroy the Federation, rather than just pose a war threat like the Romulans or the Klingons. They are a much bigger threat -- ie The threat of a Soviet Nuclear attack during the cold war, compared to the threats of Terrorism.

I can understand how Star Fleet may consider the threat reduced, but they certainly do not consider the threat completely gone -- and consider those that feel the threat is still a priority, as 'tinfoil hat' theories. It is not as if we are talking about decades later, but rather only a few years -- without he proper recon and intell.

Basically, I see Star Fleets decision to simply be another mistaken decision by 'military Intelligence', that we often see Governmental/Military Leaders make. I am not saying they are 'idiots', but their Decision is subject to disagreement and rebuttal. The only reason that this has come to pass, is not that they are 'correct', but rather simply that they have the final say, right or wrong.
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Posts: 120
# 126
03-22-2009, 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
We have the hindsight and Meta-view of knowing the Borg will be in the game but the Developers could have just as easily said “eh, we don’t like the Borg, they’re not making it in to the game, we’re just going to leave the story of Endgame in place” and then 7of9 rightfully looks like an alarmist nut with a personal obsession that’s clouding her view. If the trailer showed the sphere builders or a massive invasion by Species 8472 then we would all be saying “how dumb is Starfleet for not knowing they were coming back? “7 years, 24 years, 75 years are just numbers on a screen to us but if you actually put yourself in the shoes of an admiral who just looked at a report that says: 11 years 4 months, 1 week, 3 days and still no sighting but tomorrow could be the big day, I feel it!You would probably have a very hard time not feeling like your people are actually on vacation and you look like the idiot in charge of boogie man patrol.
I think this an extremely good point that needs to be made. I wonder exactly how many of the people going "Well why would Starfleet forget the Borg as a historical threat?" would actually remember the Borg as a viable threat were we not seeing the storyline geared towards them coming back? I'm willing to bet most of you would see them the way the Admirals do now: distant, damaged, and certainly dangerous, but not an immediate threat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loekii View Post
One potential flaw in this reasoning, is the assumption that the Borg's only means of getting to the Alpha quadrant is to use 'normal Warp'. It is assuming that Star Fleet knows everything about the Borg and thus can be assured that they could never find another way to arrive at the Alpha Quadrant sooner.

In a world where time travel is not only possible, but where history has shown that other beings like to manipulate the timeline -- ie Sphere Builders -- I would say that the road of caution would be the better travel. Also, the Borg have demonstrated to not only be Adaptive, but rather versatile. Add to this, that an ex-Borg is adimately stating that the threat still exists, and I can see the folly of Star Fleet's decision.
Okay, I'll give you that one. But then why don't we have a specific anti-Sphere Builder task force? For a species that can see multiple timelines and use their technology to influence the factions in it, why aren't we focusing on them? Why don't we have a Voth task force, a species that might actually (dare I say it) more technologically advanced than the Borg? Why don't we have a task force against Arik Soong's Augments potentially finding a rift in time and being placed into the 25th century?
You see what I'm getting at here? Yeah, there's always the possibility these dangerous scenarios might occur, but unless we have some hard data that indicates they might, how are you supposed to safeguard every single one? We might not have a shortage of resources due to replicators anymore, but there's always going to be a limit to our production capacities. A lack of a shortage doesn't mean Starfleet has unlimited resources.

Quote:
A real life parallel would be the view about post WWI defeated Germany. People were convinced that Germany was no longer a threat to the world, and as history demonstrated, that was proven wrong in just two decades more or less.

There clearly is a case to be made that Star Fleet has made the wrong decision - completely independent of our knowledge that they do indeed come back.
Think of it this way. If Mexico showed up at the border with a full, modern army (Klingons) and started annexing the Southwest U.S., do you think we should be worrying about maintaining an anti-Russia taskforce just because they might go communist and start attacking us again someday (Borg)?

Quote:
[Not intended to be insulting by any means, but I think it is ironic that we see a parallel division among the Forum posters -- which lends credence to Star Fleet reaching the same decision.
None taken, though that's because you're not really reading what we said. No one's condoning or defending Starfleet's decision to do so. Read Zombie's or my own posts. Multiple times (sometimes in the same post!) we state that since we already know the Borg are coming back, clearly it's a braindead move on Starfleet's part. However, the Starfleet Admirals don't have this knowledge, so we're trying to show you their motivation for disbanding the task force, as many posters in this thread keep stating it doesn't make sense.


So in summary:

Disbanding the task force - Obviously a bad idea, but we know that because of our 3rd person perspective. However, it makes more sense than you think - if you look at it from an in-universe viewpoint.
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# 127 Good Point
03-22-2009, 07:00 PM
Sevenblade I find your reasoning on this to be both informative and insightful and I agree with a lot of what you said. I even agree partially with Zombies view of the federations stand point on the borg task force and I was not intending to contradict what was said.

I was trying to point to a reasoning to why the federation would dismantle the taskforce and send the ships away to other assignments. It seems from my perspective that the federation has been distracted by closer to home conflicts such as the romulans and klingons and the potential for conflict their. When I think of this I can picture some federation politician sitting at his desk hugging himself and giggling because he disbaded the useless "borg taskforce" and assingeg it to more "important duties". Its seems as though politicians are making the big decisions instead of the brass at starfleet. Or that parts of the brass at starfleet are those politicains hugging themselves.

When I look at the last 2 movies with the Baku and the Romulans it shows that the federation is breaking rules or taking gambles and hoping they will pay off. Breaking rules in the Baku relocation attempt and gambleing on the chance that a single change in romulan power would mean long lasting peace for the federation. Skullzy brought out part of my reasoning when he said "I would say it’s not my assumption but Starfleet brass prioritizing active threats verses what by their information would seem like a historical threat"

To me it looks as though starfleet is making a new "Historical" error.

But thats just my point of view. If their are any questions let me know send me a message or just post im checking this "Path to 2409" forum until the new one comes out. I would especially like to here more from Sevenblade, Loekii, Zombie, and Skullzy for their perspective views.
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# 128 Opp one more thing
03-22-2009, 07:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenblade View Post
None taken, though that's because you're not really reading what we said. No one's condoning or defending Starfleet's decision to do so. Read Zombie's or my own posts. Multiple times (sometimes in the same post!) we state that since we already know the Borg are coming back, clearly it's a braindead move on Starfleet's part. However, the Starfleet Admirals don't have this knowledge, so we're trying to show you their motivation for disbanding the task force, as many posters in this thread keep stating it doesn't make sense.

So in summary:

Disbanding the task force - Obviously a bad idea, but we know that because of our 3rd person perspective. However, it makes more sense than you think - if you look at it from an in-universe viewpoint.
I agree with your thoughts exactly, my points are just to try and show a reason why the federation is acting this way and how it is a mistake I know I have more information then they do my post is for people who see this "path to 2409" segment and go "????? whats all that supposed to mean thats dumb? and to help them imagine what the characters are hopefully thinking I may be wrong and In some points I probably am but its just their to give a distinct "in his shos" point of view for people to better understand.
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# 129
03-22-2009, 07:18 PM
Seven,

You keep hedging far too much on 'our knowledge of the future'. Just because I know the out come of a battle, does not mean that I cannot consider a decision to be a bad one with out that future knowledge. Leaders make bad decisions all the time, and critics can see the mistake without the knowledge of the outcome. Some bad decisions result in a lucky outcome, but that doesn't mean it was a good decision at the time.

From a tactical standpoint, there is a credible argument that disbanding the Task Force is a bad idea, or at the very least, premature. At that point of time, there is credible evidence -- without need of our 'future knowledge'.

What I was saying is ironic, is that this forum is divided simply in the view point of whether or not it was a bad decision -- which reflects the StarFleet Decision vs. Anika's position.
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# 130 A certain point of view
03-22-2009, 07:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loekii View Post


From a tactical standpoint, there is a credible argument that disbanding the Task Force is a bad idea, or at the very least, premature. At that point of time, there is credible evidence -- without need of our 'future knowledge'.

What I was saying is ironic, is that this forum is divided simply in the view point of whether or not it was a bad decision -- which reflects the StarFleet Decision vs. Anika's position.
Heh heh I got to brush up on my Voyager, I do agree with you as well Loekii their is points that the disbanding of the fleet is a tactical error however their are also points that not using the taskforce in other duties would be a more tragic error.

What I keep reminding myself is that the borg are not the only ones out there the Romulans and Klingons are at the front door and even with the knowledge of the borgs capability their is reason to belive that they wont be back for a while say another 20 or so years (or ever by the timelines standpoint).

Though I belive that the disbanding of the taskforce is a error and was stupid. Another viewpoint is deal with the enemy if front of you deal with the hear and now, though ultimatly shortsighted it is hard to see the enemy in the distance when their are a pair of people who will shoot you standing right in fron of you blocking your view.
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