Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
06-16-2012, 08:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bespin18
ive ran AoE builds before and i dont like them, i find that i pull too much aggro and while in norm atfs thats fine because like i said i can tank a tact cube in a normal stf easily but in elites it just gets me killed alot on top of that i dont like the idea of half my dps going to waste on mobs that are just being healed which is quite common in any stf. i do have enough boffs for a second build and it is set up for AoE for those days im chasing probes but for the sake of this thread im looking for single target dps.
AoE is very usefull, for example u can get the 3 probs of both sides in KA Elite in just a few seconds. Or u can take the BoP's in Cure very easy too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bespin18
with that said you are the first person who has suggested putting tho borg console in an engineering slot and doubling up on field generators, ill have to try that and see how it works thx for the input
is a basic thing, u always should run all the field generators that u can in an escort, is key for survival. Try that with full AoE build and u will see that u can tank and take multiple targets very fast.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
06-16-2012, 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by playhard88
Quote:
Originally Posted by maelwys
+ Hull Repair is overslotted for the benefit it gives, ditto Shield Emitters and Shield Performance.
wrong dude, those are probably 2 of the most valuable skill in the entire tree. They are very cheap (1k skill points per level only), and they boost all your heals: HE, TSS, etc (even the borg set procs get bonus from shield emitters and hull repair). Shield emitters also increase the duration of RSP
All the skills give an small bonus from 6 to 9, but some of those small bonus are worth
Matter of opinion.

Base Hazard Emitters 3 at 50 Aux is 7996
3/9 Hull repair grants a HE3 of 10155 (720 for every 1k skillpoints)
6/9 Hull repair grants a HE3 of 11384 (410 for every 1k skillpoints)
9/9 Hull repair grants a HE3 of 11954 (190 for every 1k skillpoints)
That's a 49% Rise in total from 9/9, 42% from 6/9 and 27% from 3/9.

Base Transfer Shield Strength 3 is 500.
3/9 Shield Emitters grants a TSS3 of 635 (45 for every 1k skillpoints)
6/9 Shield Emitters grants a TSS3 of 710 (25 for every 1k skillpoints)
9/9 Shield Emitters grants a TSS3 of 747 (12 for every 1k skillpoints)
That's a 49% Rise in total from 9/9, 42% from 6/9 and 27% from 3/9.

Shield performance is the worst offender.
Each point from 0 to 3 grants 1.8 energy. (0.72 per 1k skillpoints)
Each point from 3 to 6 grants 1.0 energy. (0.40 per 1k skillpoints)
Each point from 6 to 9 grants 0.5 energy. (0.20 per 1k skillpoints)
That's 9.9 extra energy from 9/9, 8.4 from 6/9 and 5.4 from 3/9.

Going from 0 to 3 is worth it basically all the time.
Going from 0 to 6 gives you the vast majority of the buff, and is usually worth it on the lower tier skills.
Going from 6 to 9 however basically grants you negligable benefit, IMO it's not worth the investment unless you're concentrating on getting every last bit of benefit out of the skill (sometimes this will be the case, but often there are better things to spend your skillpoints on. If the user knows what little return on investment they're getting from going from 6 to 9 and accepts that, fair enough).

Quote:
Originally Posted by playhard88
AoE is very usefull, for example u can get the 3 probs of both sides in KA Elite in just a few seconds. Or u can take the BoP's in Cure very easy too.
Definitely agreed here.

I'm a big fan of STF AoE builds. Few non-escorts can make them work.

Quote:
is a basic thing, u always should run all the field generators that u can in an escort, is key for survival. Try that with full AoE build and u will see that u can tank and take multiple targets very fast.
For PVP perhaps, but for STFs?

They might let you weather an extra shot or two before your shields drop, but I'd hardly call them key for survival. I treat them as fillers- if I have a spare slot I'll throw one in, but I certainly wouldn't sacrifice slotting a more effective console for a Field Generator.

Extra capacity will grant you a little extra survivability against an initial Alpha Strike, but in a sustained fight, assuming you're not using hit + run tactics, it becomes basically worthless. All of my testing has pointed towards being better off in PVE using the Sci Console slots for Universal Consoles and filling your Engineering slots with Armor Consoles (2 maximum, after that the diminishing returns kick in hard), even on the squishier Escorts...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
06-16-2012, 01:48 PM
*Looks over Maelwys post.* And this is why I trust the crazy math people.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
06-16-2012, 07:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
Matter of opinion.

Base Hazard Emitters 3 at 50 Aux is 7996
3/9 Hull repair grants a HE3 of 10155 (720 for every 1k skillpoints)
6/9 Hull repair grants a HE3 of 11384 (410 for every 1k skillpoints)
9/9 Hull repair grants a HE3 of 11954 (190 for every 1k skillpoints)
That's a 49% Rise in total from 9/9, 42% from 6/9 and 27% from 3/9.

Base Transfer Shield Strength 3 is 500.
3/9 Shield Emitters grants a TSS3 of 635 (45 for every 1k skillpoints)
6/9 Shield Emitters grants a TSS3 of 710 (25 for every 1k skillpoints)
9/9 Shield Emitters grants a TSS3 of 747 (12 for every 1k skillpoints)
That's a 49% Rise in total from 9/9, 42% from 6/9 and 27% from 3/9.

Shield performance is the worst offender.
Each point from 0 to 3 grants 1.8 energy. (0.72 per 1k skillpoints)
Each point from 3 to 6 grants 1.0 energy. (0.40 per 1k skillpoints)
Each point from 6 to 9 grants 0.5 energy. (0.20 per 1k skillpoints)
That's 9.9 extra energy from 9/9, 8.4 from 6/9 and 5.4 from 3/9.

Going from 0 to 3 is worth it basically all the time.
Going from 0 to 6 gives you the vast majority of the buff, and is usually worth it on the lower tier skills.
Going from 6 to 9 however basically grants you negligable benefit, IMO it's not worth the investment unless you're concentrating on getting every last bit of benefit out of the skill (sometimes this will be the case, but often there are better things to spend your skillpoints on. If the user knows what little return on investment they're getting from going from 6 to 9 and accepts that, fair enough).



Definitely agreed here.

I'm a big fan of STF AoE builds. Few non-escorts can make them work.



For PVP perhaps, but for STFs?

They might let you weather an extra shot or two before your shields drop, but I'd hardly call them key for survival. I treat them as fillers- if I have a spare slot I'll throw one in, but I certainly wouldn't sacrifice slotting a more effective console for a Field Generator.

Extra capacity will grant you a little extra survivability against an initial Alpha Strike, but in a sustained fight, assuming you're not using hit + run tactics, it becomes basically worthless. All of my testing has pointed towards being better off in PVE using the Sci Console slots for Universal Consoles and filling your Engineering slots with Armor Consoles (2 maximum, after that the diminishing returns kick in hard), even on the squishier Escorts...
right now in my engineering slots i have a monotanium, neutronium and an electroceramic on my sci i have the field gen, and borg. should i change any of these out? or keep as is? also i should note that i do own the universal grav generator, should i use it?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
06-17-2012, 09:44 AM
First of all, don't need to do the maths for every single skill, they are already done: http://home.comcast.net/~amicus/Skil...%20Effects.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
Matter of opinion.

Base Hazard Emitters 3 at 50 Aux is 7996
3/9 Hull repair grants a HE3 of 10155 (720 for every 1k skillpoints)
6/9 Hull repair grants a HE3 of 11384 (410 for every 1k skillpoints)
9/9 Hull repair grants a HE3 of 11954 (190 for every 1k skillpoints)
That's a 49% Rise in total from 9/9, 42% from 6/9 and 27% from 3/9.
As i said, all the skils have an small bonus from 6 to 9, but some of them worth. Even more with a tier1 skill that is very cheap, the cost-benefit is still good if u compare the benefit with a tier5 skills for example (a tier5 energy skill gives u 1 or 2 extra energy if u spent 3k -1 level-, so tell me..that worth? i don't think so..). Hull repair from 6 to 9 only need 3k skill point, tell me where u can spent those 3k points in order to get a more usefull bonus that the one from hull repair? nowhere..
And u forgot that hull repair also affect the borg set proc, and increase the base hull regeneration

This applies for shield emitters too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
For PVP perhaps, but for STFs?
A normal escort only have 1 hull heal skill, and his hull and dmg resistence is quite low, once your shield is down u are exposed to torpedos. The most part of the kinectic dmg from torpedos is absorved by the shields, any borg torpedos can blow an escort on 1 or 2 shots if the torpedo hit the hull, but if u shield facing is even at 1% the most of the damage is absorved. Conclusion: keep your shields up or u are dead, an escort can't do hull tanking no matter how many eng consoles u put in.

And for PvP is not perhaps, is a must, there is no point for discussion there, if u are a pvp player u should know it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
They might let you weather an extra shot or two before your shields drop, but I'd hardly call them key for survival. I treat them as fillers- if I have a spare slot I'll throw one in, but I certainly wouldn't sacrifice slotting a more effective console for a Field Generator.
1 or 2 shots? lol...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
06-18-2012, 05:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by playhard88

Hull repair from 6 to 9 only need 3k skill point, tell me where u can spent those 3k points in order to get a more usefull bonus that the one from hull repair? nowhere..
Seriously ??

OK...

[In my opinion, after significant PVE gameplay and a load of testing:]

Starship Attack Patterns (1-9), Starship Weapons Training (1-9), Starship Energy Weapons (1-9), Starship Projectile Weapons (1-9), Starship Maneuvers (1-9), Starship Targeting Systems (1-9), Starship Threat Control (1-6, If Cruiser or need extra Resistance, 6-9 Only if main tanking), Starship Energy Weapon Specialization (1-6 for everyone, 6-9 only if really concentrating on Crit Chance/Severity), Starship Projectile Weapon Specialization (1-6 for everyone, 6-9 only if really concentrating on Crit Chance/Severity)

Starship Batteries (1-6, if you actually use them regularly), Structural Integrity (1-9), Starship Warp Core Efficiency (1-9), Starship Electro-Plasma Systems (1-6 for anyone that uses EPTX or FAW or BO, 6-9 only if really trying to cap EPTX), Starship Impulse Thrusters (1-6), Starship Warp Core Potential (1-9), Starship Engine Performance (1-3 for everyone, 3-6 if you want a bit of extra speed/turnrate, 6-9 only if really trying to cap engine power), Starship Hull Plating (1-3 everyone, 3-6 for Cruisers/tanks), Starship Shield Performance (1-3 for everyone, 3-9 if you need a little extra to get your shield power to hit 125 at a particular energy setting), Starship Armor Reinforcements (1-3 everyone, 3-6 if you can afford it due to Heavy Plasma Torps and Warp Core Breaches), Starship Auxiliary Performance (1-3 everyone, 6-9 only if you can't hit 125 Aux with your energy setting at 100 and want to be able to play a support role), Starship Weapon Performance (1-3 everyone, 6-9 only to cap Weapons power at 125 at a particular energy setting).

Starship Flow Capacitors (1-9 only if using Plasmonic Leech, Tyken's Rift, Tetryon Glider or Beam Target Subsystem), Starship Shield Emitters (1-6 for anyone that uses EPTX or TSS or ES, 6-9 only if REALLY trying to cap Shield Healing capacity), Starship Power Insulators (PVP only), Starship Shield Systems (1-9), Starship Particle Generators (1-9 only if using GW or PSW), Starship Inertial Dampeners (PVP only)

I'm not covering Ground skills because you can generally get all the "must have's" with the 66k Ground-only skillpoint pool.


Quote:
And u forgot that hull repair also affect the borg set proc, and increase the base hull regeneration
I didn't forget it, I just don't think that spending 3k skillpoints for an extra 5.27% increase in Hull healing is worth it, unless you're trying to specialise in Hull healing and/or have spare skillpoints after covering everything else. For the reasons outlined above: there are a LOT of useful places to spend your skillpoints 3-3 I'd consider "Vital", 3-6 is "Want if at all possible". 6-9 is "Would be nice".

Even discounting the skillpoint limitations and the relatively tiny increase in healing performance from going form 6 to 9, as you pointed out earlier: Escorts have low hull values, so they generally don't NEED massive heal values in order to recover the same % of hull points. So at what point does the level of healing you can throw at it become "Good enough"?

THAT is where "personal opinion" kicks in. (And personally, I regard 'Base Hull regeneration' in combat as unreliable and effectively worthless, and the Borg Proc I'd regard as already sufficiently powerful).

Quote:
This applies for shield emitters too.
See above.
Same point stands.

Quote:
A normal escort only have 1 hull heal skill, and his hull and dmg resistence is quite low, once your shield is down u are exposed to torpedos. The most part of the kinectic dmg from torpedos is absorved by the shields, any borg torpedos can blow an escort on 1 or 2 shots if the torpedo hit the hull, but if u shield facing is even at 1% the most of the damage is absorved. Conclusion: keep your shields up or u are dead, an escort can't do hull tanking no matter how many eng consoles u put in.
Assuming that you're right and you can only take one Hull Heal skill (ALL my ships take at least Aux2SIF1 and HE1) - let's assume all you have to go on is Aux2SIF1...

My Tac Odyssey has 10109 Shields. Hull is 57513.
My Fleet Escort has 8234 Shields. Hull is 41388.

Same Captain.

A Shield Capacity Console adds 12.9% of the above (non base) shields value to either ship.

For Resistance on the Fleet Escort:
34.3% Resistance (1 Monotanium console/2 Neutroniums) or 45.3% Resistance (2xMono/4xNeut)
This rises to 44.15% with Aux2SIF1 (1 or 2 consoles) or 49.7% (2 or 4 consoles)
Going all with all non-consumable buffs available, I can hit a Kinetic Damres of 66.6%

On my Odyssey, there is no difference in Damage Resistances until you start adding in Aux2SIF, because my Ody runs Aux2SIF3 not Aux2SIF1. The difference is however fairly minimal, and the maximum Kinetic value I can hit is 67.3% Kinetic Damres, compared to the 66.7% of the Escort.

Again, that's with just two Engineering Consoles (if using Monotanium Armor).

Basically, compared like-for-like, my Fleet Escort has more or less the same damage resistance, 81.45% of the Shield Capacity and 71.96% of the Hull Capacity of my Odyssey. That's pretty much 80% of the survivability.

(That assumes that my Ody is running EPTS1, not EPTS3 for additional Shield Resistances, and that it's not using more than two Engineering Console slots for Armor Consoles. Armor has severe diminishing returns above 2 consoles, so I generally won't use more than two; and I generally run EPTS1 and use my Universal LtCom slot for a TAC BOFF instead, since nothing in PVE really requires the extra survivability of EPTS3)


Quote:
1 or 2 shots? lol...
You seem to vastly overestimate the importance of shield capacity in PVE.

There is a very common belief amongst a certain crowd that more Shield Capacity is always best... in an attempt to address this, I'll try to explain how the damage mechanics in play during a Torpedo hit actually work (at least as I currently understand them from various tests - this may be incomplete, but this is what I've observed in-game...)

Versus Energy Damage, in PVE Capacity won't matter much because the incoming damage will be so minimal that you will be able to Shield Heal straight through it without it ever touching your hull, even at lower shield capacities you won't spike down low enough to be at any real risk (assumes that you're balancing your shields properly e.g. running Tac Team) so we can safely focus solely on torpedo hits:

Versus Torpedo Damage, well, the REAL trick in a Torpedo fight is - as you even mentioned yourself above - to keep at least a SLIVER of shields up all the time. This is because the way the game engine works currently:

------------------------------------

Whenever a Torpedo hits you, two things happen:

#1: The bleedthrough damage is applied to your hull. This bleedthrough value is not affected by shield resistance, but IS affected by the shield type - e.g. normal shields have 10% bleedthrough, Resilient Shields have 5% bleedthrough. The damage from the bleedthrough then gets mitigated by your Kinetic Hull resistances.

We now take the remaining portion of the damage (90% for normal shields, 95% for resilient shields).

#2 (a): If you do NOT have ANY shields up, the entire damage value impacts your hull, ignoring your shield type's bleedthrough values and any shield resistances. It does get affected by your hull kinetic resistances, but you will take a LOT of damage.

#2 (b): If you have ANY shields up (even 1 point out of 15000), it deducts 75% of the damage. It doesn't get any strange modifiers applied, it just vanishes. 25% of the original torpedo damage then gets applied FIRST to the shield facing, with any Shield Damage Resistances applied.


If the Facing stays up, things stop here.

If the Facing drops, the remainder of the damage gets applied to your hull.
This remainder then gets reduced by your Hull Kinetic Damage Resistances.

If your Hull stays above 0%, you live, if not, you explode.

------------------------------------

Therefore maximum shield capacity simply DOES NOT MATTER much against Kinetic hits. What DOES matter is that the current value (not maximum value) of the shield facing which gets hit by the Torpedo is above zero at the time of impact. This is why Balancing your shield facings and running a copy of Tac team is VITALLY important whenever you're getting shot at by torps.

All extra Shield capacity does is provide slightly more hitpoints for the final 25% damage in part #2(b) above to be measured against. At this point, the 25% doesn't care if it is measured against Shield Capacity (with Shield resistances applied) or Hull Capacity (with Hull Kinetic resistances applied).

At this point, it should be fairly clear that it is FAR more important to raise your Hull Kinetic damage Resistance up a bit than to just add more Shield Capacity, especially since those same Hull resistances will not only help against the 25% in part #2(b), but also against the 5% or 10% bleedthrough damage in part #1.

The +44.15% mitigation in damage resistance I'd get from two Monotanium consoles on my Fleet Escort is therefore SIGNIFICANTLY more beneficial than the +25.8% mitigation in extra capacity I'd get from 2x Shield Capacity consoles. This difference is actually even greater than it appears, whenever you consider that your shield heals aren't directly linked to your net capacity and none of that shield mitigation will be applied to damage bleedthrough.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
06-18-2012, 06:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginaMala View Post
*Looks over Maelwys post.* And this is why I trust the crazy math people.
My math isn't always 100% accurate, but it's certainly always 100% crazy... :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
06-18-2012, 10:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
Seriously ??

OK...

[In my opinion, after significant PVE gameplay and a load of testing:]

Starship Attack Patterns (1-9), Starship Weapons Training (1-9), Starship Energy Weapons (1-9), Starship Projectile Weapons (1-9), Starship Maneuvers (1-9), Starship Targeting Systems (1-9), Starship Threat Control (1-6, If Cruiser or need extra Resistance, 6-9 Only if main tanking), Starship Energy Weapon Specialization (1-6 for everyone, 6-9 only if really concentrating on Crit Chance/Severity), Starship Projectile Weapon Specialization (1-6 for everyone, 6-9 only if really concentrating on Crit Chance/Severity)

Starship Batteries (1-6, if you actually use them regularly), Structural Integrity (1-9), Starship Warp Core Efficiency (1-9), Starship Electro-Plasma Systems (1-6 for anyone that uses EPTX or FAW or BO, 6-9 only if really trying to cap EPTX), Starship Impulse Thrusters (1-6), Starship Warp Core Potential (1-9), Starship Engine Performance (1-3 for everyone, 3-6 if you want a bit of extra speed/turnrate, 6-9 only if really trying to cap engine power), Starship Hull Plating (1-3 everyone, 3-6 for Cruisers/tanks), Starship Shield Performance (1-3 for everyone, 3-9 if you need a little extra to get your shield power to hit 125 at a particular energy setting), Starship Armor Reinforcements (1-3 everyone, 3-6 if you can afford it due to Heavy Plasma Torps and Warp Core Breaches), Starship Auxiliary Performance (1-3 everyone, 6-9 only if you can't hit 125 Aux with your energy setting at 100 and want to be able to play a support role), Starship Weapon Performance (1-3 everyone, 6-9 only to cap Weapons power at 125 at a particular energy setting).

Starship Flow Capacitors (1-9 only if using Plasmonic Leech, Tyken's Rift, Tetryon Glider or Beam Target Subsystem), Starship Shield Emitters (1-6 for anyone that uses EPTX or TSS or ES, 6-9 only if REALLY trying to cap Shield Healing capacity), Starship Power Insulators (PVP only), Starship Shield Systems (1-9), Starship Particle Generators (1-9 only if using GW or PSW), Starship Inertial Dampeners (PVP only)

when i said "where u can spent those 3k points in a better way" i was talking about the build i posted in my first post in this topic lol.

And there a few details in your fancy list:
- electro plasma don't affect FAW because FAW don't have extra drain, the power drops faster because the firing circle speed is increased, and the fire circle power drain is not affected by EPS (the same happend with CRF). In other hand, it works with BO because this one have and extra power drain.
- never use theath control in an escort if u wanna do PvE (and for crusiers there is a better way of optimize the hull resistences using treath+hull plating http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...0&postcount=14)
- flow capacitors can also be used for a extra bonus polaron/tetryon proc
- particle generatos can also be use for an extra bonus to GW, CPB, Tyken rift, etc
etc
etc
etc..

I don't have time now for qoute every single line of your long post now, i can do it latter if u want.
Anyway let me say that u are overthinking this too much, since PvE is so damm easy in this game, stf's elite can be done using tier3 ships if u want....

Try a little more pvp, there all this maths have far more sense there, just don't bring the tact oddysey lol, unless u wanna be fresh meat
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
06-18-2012, 11:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by playhard88
Try a little more pvp, there all this maths have far more sense there, just don't bring the tact oddysey lol, unless u wanna be fresh meat
PVP

I'm not going to comment on the other stuff (because we could be here all week) except to say that "never use theath control in an escort if u wanna do PvE" should read "never use threat control in an escort in PVE if you're not prepared to tank whatever you're firing at".

Some of us are.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
06-18-2012, 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
My math isn't always 100% accurate, but it's certainly always 100% crazy... :p

Indeed it is.

I actually am using. On a Varanus captained by a Gorn. A very rare resilient shield regx3. Just haven't gotten around to doing more STF's. I have MK XI engines and deflectors so you know I've done a few.

It's low cap but as long as I keep a little bitty bit up I'm in pretty good shape.

Everything that you said happens when you get hit by a torpedo is certainly true. One of those things will happen each and every timie.

The only question is how best to achieve the favorable outcome.

It's not terribly difficult to burst down a shield facing of any player that isn't running tactical team or has found themselves in a position with an low overall shield strength. It also isn't terribly difficult to bake a ship inside its shields. Welcome to PvP.

You can see the same things happening to you in PvE. Just in PvE its normally a situation where you can see it coming and likely have other options besides just taking the hit.

But in either case you could run a ship right out of the box with all common consoles, skill your captain with a dartboard, a handful of darts, and some beer and as long as you remember to bring some copies of tactical team and EPTS with you you'll be WAY AHEAD of the pack.

That being said I'm not disagreeing here. I'm just saying that "Not standing in fire" is gonna help a lot more people than a 5% change in a build.

Have fun Kill borg and stuff.

EDIT: I just came here to bookmark that skill table playhard linked. ty playhard!
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