Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
06-18-2012, 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bringram View Post
Has anybody confirmed this in game yet? It seems like it was being debated in the forums.
Yes the defense console is increased/decreased based on both you skill points into projectiles as well as your consoles.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
06-18-2012, 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demosthenes01101 View Post
2x DCs and 3xTurrets, tetryon, put skill points into flow capacitors, use the armitage and use advanced delta flyers, run 2x quantums with 3 purple doffs.
It's not much of a torpedo boat at that point, and I'm not convinced the resulting DPS would:

A) Be significantly improved vs. Typical DHCx4 or DHCx3 +1 Torp build.

B) Be worth using 3/5 Active Space Roster slots for the damage increase, if any.

I tried exactly what you describe once before and the log parsings did not show anything impressive.

I tried to imagine a way to move up to a 3rd torp to see if that would tip the scale, but I see no viable way to do that in an escort as you have very limited shield stripping capability.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
06-18-2012, 01:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
Now here's my question:

Cygone's build is designed around shield stripping, with the goal of getting to the bare hull faster - and to that effect he is limited to 2 PWOs to keep the rest of the build functioning.

That build is very specifically a Sci ship - so how can we make this passable/viable for an STF focused escort?
Raw cannon damage to strip shields?

Most targets are without shields in STFís. [borg] on torpedoes do 1000 damage per shot to hull as well as normal damage. With the upcoming changes a Transphasic torpedo with [borg] will be doing over 3000 damage per shot with shields up and 4000+ with shields down (half that currently). With a max fire rate and the upcomeing changes thatís 1500dps against shields without Torpedo spread or high yield and no damage loss for range or low energy.

It seems to me [borg] Transphasic or [borg] Quantumís are a must for STF runs even if itís just a single launcher with torpedo spread for all those unshielded targets. Personally I just use Transphasic and donít care about shields but for most people I think Quantumís are best.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
06-18-2012, 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
It's not much of a torpedo boat at that point, and I'm not convinced the resulting DPS would:

A) Be significantly improved vs. Typical DHCx4 or DHCx3 +1 Torp build.

B) Be worth using 3/5 Active Space Roster slots for the damage increase, if any.

I tried exactly what you describe once before and the log parsings did not show anything impressive.

I tried to imagine a way to move up to a 3rd torp to see if that would tip the scale, but I see no viable way to do that in an escort as you have very limited shield stripping capability.
Well, two points, first if you start from the assumption that you WANT a torp boat, if you go up to 3 torps, you don't have enough shield stripping power, which makes your torpedo boat an ineffective torpedo boat. As I see it, Torpedo Boat here is defined as the most effective build incorporating the most usage of torpedoes. That means 2x torps and 3x PWO doffs, IMO. No other build is going to be as effective that builds around torpedoes (and I would say devoting 2 of your 4 forward slots to torps is a pretty substantial commitment!).

If you just want what will probably do the most DPS, you want 4xDHCs, period. But that isn't what this is about. I would also add that in certain STFs, the torp boat may pull ahead because of the sheer number of unshielded things to kill, i.e. the cure or maybe KA. When you are churning out quantums 1 every second with HYTs added in, I have to think you crank out more damage than the DHCs. Maybe it isn't greater, but at least it is competitive.

But yeah, moral of the story is, if you want the straught up most reliable DPS out there, the answer is 4xDHCs and 3x Turrets.

My question to you is: On the armitage, with an all cannon build, what do you use the 3rd ensign tac slot for? Hmmmmmaaaaaah? Riddle me THAT. No really, I want to know wtf to do with it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
06-18-2012, 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demosthenes01101 View Post
My question to you is: On the armitage, with an all cannon build, what do you use the 3rd ensign tac slot for? Hmmmmmaaaaaah? Riddle me THAT. No really, I want to know wtf to do with it.
I think that question is a lot more common than with just the Armitage.

(Also, I have no answer for you. I'm still kinda trying to figure it out on two of my escorts, and I don't even have the Armitage yet).

-J
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
06-18-2012, 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
Raw cannon damage to strip shields?

Most targets are without shields in STFís.
If all you care about is maxxing out your DPS score in a parser then that is fairly accurate.

If you actually want to deal with the targets that do have shields, i.e. most of the ones that are not immobile, borderline defenseless objects - then you do in fact have to deal with shields.

Negh'var, Raptors, all Elite Cubes, Donatra, all Spheres (especially the mass of spheres in ISE).


Being able to cut through shields will always be important vs. those targets and they are generally the targets that pose a threat to players.

I'm willing to wait and see on transphasics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
It seems to me [borg] Transphasic or [borg] Quantumís are a must for STF runs even if itís just a single launcher with torpedo spread for all those unshielded targets. Personally I just use Transphasic and donít care about shields but for most people I think Quantumís are best.
I'm not disagreeing with one launcher, I'm not convinced a true "torpedo" Escort with 3 torpedo launchers is all that great of an idea.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Demosthenes01101 View Post
As I see it, Torpedo Boat here is defined as the most effective build incorporating the most usage of torpedoes.
That's a pretty specific definition.

What you go on to describe is a ship that has 2 torpedo launchers out of an available 7 weapon slots. So to me you have more torpedos than usual, but I'm not seeing it as a full torpedo build like Cygone's which is completely centered around Torpedos for the primary DPS contribution.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
06-18-2012, 04:39 PM
In my testing quantums work best for tacs, the damage buffs a tac can generate helps to boost the base damage over the damage a photon can do.
Photons work better for engs and scis.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
06-18-2012, 07:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idali
In my testing quantums work best for tacs, the damage buffs a tac can generate helps to boost the base damage over the damage a photon can do.
Photons work better for engs and scis.
IDK. I'm an Engineer and quantums work great for me. Although tacs do have some damage abilities I'm a little envious of.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 15
# 49
07-14-2012, 10:04 AM
I've been fiddling with numbers and such.

Assuming...

...3 PWO's of the same quality procing 20% of the time each;
...that their effects stack when more than one procs;
...that the RoF of a weapon can't drop below 1.5s;
...that there's nothing else at play to affect DPS...

...Photon vs. Quantum DPS seems to look something like this:

PHOTON MK XII (Base 2980 damage, 6.5s reload)
# Procs-------------------------0----------1-----------2---------3--------Overall
Odds of this happening.......40%........48.8%.....10.4%....0.8% ...100%

White (-2s / proc)...............459.........662..........1192. .....1987....646
Green (-3s / proc)...............459.........851..........1987. .....1987....821
Blue PWOs (-4s / proc)........459.........1192........1987......198 7....988
Purple PWOs (-5s / proc).....459.........1987........1987......1987.. ..1375

QUANTUM MK XII (Base 3313 damage, 8.5s reload)
# Procs-------------------------0----------1-----------2---------3--------Overall
Odds of this happening.......40%........48.8%.....10.4%....0.8% ...100%

White (-2s / proc)...............390.........510..........736.. .....1325....492
Green (-3s / proc)...............390.........602..........1325. .....2209....605
Blue PWOs (-4s / proc)........390.........736........2209......2209 ....763
Purple PWOs (-5s / proc).....390.........947.........2209......2209.. ..865

(NOTE: "Overall" above is the sum of all (DPS * frequency) for each level of PWO quality.)

Basically, with 3 White PWO's, Photons would have a higher DPS if all 3 proc'd with every shot. Green PWO's? Photons have a higher DPS 99% of the time. Blue PWO's and Photons have a higher DPS 89% of the time. Even using Purple PWO's, Photons still do better 89% of the time.

Again, that's just the raw numbers as near as I can tell with nothing but PWO's at work.
PWO's in a perfect world...*cough*...so to speak.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 50
07-15-2012, 03:45 AM
I run a Guramba w/ 2 (front facing) Quantums, 2 Quantum consoles, and 3 Purples PWOs. I've swapped off and tried a photon setup under the same circumstances. The Quantums generally perform better because they hit harder w/ Torp Spread & High Yield, which makes up a significant portion of your damage. The "white" damage is generally pretty similar, Photon damage is a little more stable and less prone to variance, while Quantum damage has a higher potential overall but can dip low on particularly unlucky runs. Both options are actually very stable, and the variance of total damage is only a 3-4% spread at most.

The real question is would the added damage (from using Photon consoles) on the Photon Point Defense system be enough to outweigh the advantages of Quantum's hitting harder w/ BO abilities. I tend to think that would be highly dependent on how opportune you are with it, but I suspect the Quantums would win out the majority of the time simply because of the 3 minute cool down on that console.

Without the Photon Point Defense system, Quantums definitely come out ahead though... assuming you have 3 Purple PWOs and are using a couple Torpedo BO abilities.

But, to be perfectly honest.. both options are extremely viable and the total damage difference is not going to be significant enough that it's going to matter in most scenarios (most likey a few hundred DPS). If I were going to run a Armitage, I'd probably go with Photons just because it's a significantly cheaper setup.

Last edited by xantris; 07-15-2012 at 03:58 AM.
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