Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 101
06-29-2012, 12:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sierrafortune View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by daiouvegeta2 View Post
Tanking is not best done by any tactical in anything. It is BEST done by an engineering class in a cruiser. This is a fact, which cannot be disputed.
The Threat Skill does not seem to be able to keep up with an Escorts ability to pump out damage in a lot of cases, reducing the Cruiser to a secondary role in providing fire-support and healing for the Escort if they wish for a group to maintain a consistent amount of DPS. If it were made possible for Cruisers to able to take on more threat than an Escort, then the Cruiser could effectively use its inherit traits to their full potential, which would also allow the Escorts to better do their jobs without having to worry about getting blown to pieces, or wonder why the Cruiser Pilot isn't healing them when the Cruiser is taking no damage.
Pretty much this.

If an Engineering Captain can generate enough hate to tank, then they are the "best" tank on paper. If they can't, then a Tactical Captain is the better choice.

The reason for this is that the amount of damage you can survive is irrelevant if you're not being shot at.

That said, it's perfectly viable to build a Cruiser with an Engineering Captain which can hold hate over an Escort. But you need to strike a balance between Damage output and Survivability in order to do this, you can't just go "All out survivability" and expect the Escorts to constantly hold the bulk of their firepower back in order to let you take hate.

HOWEVER, given the difference in raw damage, given the same levels of equipment it can be very difficult for a Cruiser to hold hate constantly over an Escort even with a decent level of damage output and considerable investment into the Threat Control skill... so it's perfectly OK for the Escorts to occasionally "pull hate" if they use all their spike damage abilities at once. Even the squishiest Escort can survive being shot at for a few seconds, and a well-built Cruiser will be specced with ALLIED heals and damage resistance buffs - "tanks" in STO therefore primarilly play a hybrid role of support and meatshield, plus sustained DPS as a byproduct of trying to keep hate.

But all this is purely theoretical.

In practice, you'll never need the extra survivability of a Engineer over a Tac.

A Tac in a Cruiser (or even a Tac in an Escort, with the right equipment and BOFF power choices) can currently hold the attention of and weather the damage from the most powerful enemies in the game. I know, because I've done it personally. And whilst my equipment is pretty decent, it's not "perfect"; And whilst I'm pretty well practiced, I'm not the best pilot out there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by meurik View Post
In space, the following is TRUE for Star Trek Online:

Tactical Captains: DPS Enhancing abilities
Engineer Captains: Survivability Enhancing abilities
Science Captains: Support/Debuff enhancing abilities

Escorts: Deals the most damage, and has the lowest survivability
Cruisers: Deals moderate damage, highest survivability
Science: Deals moderate damage, with moderate survivability
Correct for Tactical Captains, Engineering Captains and Cruisers.

Science Captains have better DPS than Engineering Captains and better survivability than Tactical Captains, Sensor Scan and Holographic Fleet are examples of DPS enhancing abilities, and they have multiple Allied Survivability buffs. They've actually got little in the way of "odd"/CC abilities other than Subnucleonic Beam.

Escorts have by far the highest SPIKE damage potential, but their SUSTAINED damage potential isn't that far below Cruisers and Sci Vessels. Technically Sci Vessels have the highest Survivability (Shield Capacity and CC) whereas Cruisers have the Highest Survivability (Hull Capacity and Damage Resistance). Cruisers are the natural choice for tanking because the damage output they can produce is weighted towards sustained (constant) damage, meaning if they manage to grab hate they will hold it fairly reliably; and the damage output they can weather is also fairly constant due to their resistance buffs, meaning it's difficult to kill them with an Alpha Strike, and any damage they DO take will be lower and easier to heal back.

Then you've got the odd combinations like the Carriers (Kar'fi in particular) which can be built for pretty much anything...

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,618
# 102
06-29-2012, 12:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by beezle23 View Post
All very well and good, but I'll give you the real reason why you don't want Threat Control:

The incoming aggro will make your Chef's souffles go flat, thus ruining your Shipboard Morale stat and giving you a -15% to defense.

Note, this is mostly detrimental Fed side. KDF side can clear the defense loss by jettisoning the Chef via a Doff assignment.

(Note: This is for Starship Threat Control. Ground Threat Control is only useful if you like the taste of dirt.)
See I got around this fed side by just ordering my chef to make pizza. And i also dont keep soda around just incase the extra shaking makes it go flat too.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,671
# 103
06-29-2012, 01:23 AM
besides making npc's see red, threat control gives you a kinetinc and energy damage resist.

exactly how much can bee seen here http://home.comcast.net/~amicus/Skil...%20Effects.htm

i recommend for every ship and every build 6 points into threat control, and 3 points into hull plating, you get a decent amount of energy damage resist and a bit of kinetic resist. its more efficient then just putting 9 into hull plating for energy resist.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 104
06-29-2012, 01:25 AM
you won't find me in pvp queues
I only PVP on special occasions (usually to help a particular friend of mine test out his latest bird of prey rig outs)
we play hide and seek for a few minutes as he tries to get close enough to "tag" me
without detection

THEN we go toe to toe so he can test his weapons rigs

His latest set up was so effective I had to actually hit the fleet support to take him down
we have not yet discussed what the hell he is usong for hull plating
but he took the full fire of my Galaxy for over 3 minutes before going down (his previous record was 2 mins 14 seconds)

oh and for the record he has NEVER complained about my Galaxy
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 85
# 105
06-29-2012, 01:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
you won't find me in pvp queues
I only PVP on special occasions (usually to help a particular friend of mine test out his latest bird of prey rig outs)
we play hide and seek for a few minutes as he tries to get close enough to "tag" me
without detection

THEN we go toe to toe so he can test his weapons rigs

His latest set up was so effective I had to actually hit the fleet support to take him down
we have not yet discussed what the hell he is usong for hull plating
but he took the full fire of my Galaxy for over 3 minutes before going down (his previous record was 2 mins 14 seconds)

oh and for the record he has NEVER complained about my Galaxy
he doesn't have to complain because you can't tank. you don't know how to, as backed up by your belief that no one is capable of weathering enemy blows for the rest of their team. after all, you claim that such an action is "suicidal".
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,955
# 106
06-29-2012, 01:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
besides making npc's see red, threat control gives you a kinetinc and energy damage resist.

exactly how much can bee seen here http://home.comcast.net/~amicus/Skil...%20Effects.htm

i recommend for every ship and every build 6 points into threat control, and 3 points into hull plating, you get a decent amount of energy damage resist and a bit of kinetic resist. its more efficient then just putting 9 into hull plating for energy resist.
Why was I not made aware of this spreadsheet before?

Mustrum "Someone's head gonna roll for that" Ridcully
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 107
06-29-2012, 01:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
besides making npc's see red, threat control gives you a kinetinc and energy damage resist.

exactly how much can bee seen here http://home.comcast.net/~amicus/Skil...%20Effects.htm

i recommend for every ship and every build 6 points into threat control, and 3 points into hull plating, you get a decent amount of energy damage resist and a bit of kinetic resist. its more efficient then just putting 9 into hull plating for energy resist.
From a purely Resistance POV, this is good advice.

I'd be a little wary of taking Threat Control if you're on an Escort and intend to do much PVE though. I'm not saying don't do it, but such an Escort would need to be prepared to withstand more damage output than an average Escort, given that they'll likely attract and hold the attention of whatever they're firing at.

In terms of aggro holding potential:
Cruiser with Threat Control > Escort without Threat Control.
Escort with Threat Control > Cruiser with Threat Control.

It can be fun to pull aggro off uppity Cruiser captains who think they can be a total aggro sponge and never lose hate though. I have an Engineering Captain who flies both a Cruiser and an Escort and is specced into 6/9 Threat Control - he's not intended to be a complete aggro magnet, but to have sufficent hate holding capabilities (and buffs) to keep most of the team alive whenever he's flying his Cruiser. However, I've had PUG teammates ragequit STFs before whenever their Cruisers couldn't pull aggro off his Escort...

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 471
# 108
06-29-2012, 01:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
besides making npc's see red, threat control gives you a kinetinc and energy damage resist.

exactly how much can bee seen here http://home.comcast.net/~amicus/Skil...%20Effects.htm

i recommend for every ship and every build 6 points into threat control, and 3 points into hull plating, you get a decent amount of energy damage resist and a bit of kinetic resist. its more efficient then just putting 9 into hull plating for energy resist.
Bookmarked that as a great link.

Thank you.
If you are a pickle in a pickle jar you know every pickle's different, sort of, but really they're all just pickles...
They taste the same.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 109
06-29-2012, 01:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustrumridcully0 View Post
Why was I not made aware of this spreadsheet before?

Mustrum "Someone's head gonna roll for that" Ridcully
It's one of those extremely handy reference sources that've been floating about on the forums for several months, but never stickied. We should really get around to stickying things again...

( Posted these before the forum swap, but besides the Wiki, I've found myself using some other threads: )

Ship Power Level Calculator
Weapon Power Calculations
Skillpoint Effects 1
Skillpoint Effects 2
Aux Power Effects
Tests on Projectile DOFFs
Math on extra Energy Weapons versus Photon Launchers
Torpedo Spread versus Torpedo High Yield
CSV3 oddities

I'm sure there's more, but those are all the ones I've bothered to refer back to in the past fortnight or so.

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,671
# 110
06-29-2012, 02:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustrumridcully0 View Post
Why was I not made aware of this spreadsheet before?

Mustrum "Someone's head gonna roll for that" Ridcully
you really haven't seen that? thats been posted 10 different places in the pvp forum alone. the perfect guide when ever you feel the urge to respec.

if you like that, all you would be damage dealers would love this.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...0E&output=html
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