Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 635
Having browsed the shipyard on Tribble, I noticed a couple things. First, fleet retrofits have the same bridge officer layout and the regular retrofit. The only fleet ships with different layouts are fleet versions of tier 5 ships (which aren't retrofits). Second, Fleet ships have ten consoles.

There is an exception to this, something I am hoping is an oversight. I know nothing is final at the moment, but I hope this glaring error does not become final. The Science vessel Retrofit and Fleet Science Vessel Retrofit are a bit lacking compared to the rest of the new ships.

The Science Vessel Retrofit is basically an inferior Recon Science Vessel.

Science Vessel Retrofit
Bridge Officers:
Lieutenant Tactical
Ensign Tactical

Lieutenant Engineering
Commander Science
Lieutenant Commander Science

Consoles: 2 Eng, 3 Tac, 4 Sci
Base Hull: 24900
Shield Modifier: 1.01
base Crew: 100
Base Turn: 14

Reconnaissance Science Vessel
Bridge Officers:
Lieutenant Tactical
Ensign Tactical

Lieutenant Engineering
Commander Science
Lieutenant Commander Science

Consoles: 2 Eng, 3 Tac, 4 Sci
Base Hull: 27000
Shield Modifier: 1.3
Base Crew: 350
Base Turn: 13

They have the same bridge officer layout and the same console layout exactly, but the SV-R has less hull, a lower shield modifier and less crew, all of which add up to reduced survivability. The only thing the SV-R has over the RSV is an increased turn rate, the SV-R has one degree per second more turn rate. I would hardly cause that an equitable exchange especially when you consider you have to put in a fair amount of stuff into the fleet system to get fleet credits as well as to level your shipyard to tier 3 and get ships requisitioned where the Reconnaissance Science Vessel just cost's dilithium, or can even be chosen free if it's the first ship you pick when you reach Rear Admiral.

Fleet Science Vessel Retrofit
Bridge Officers:
Commander Tactical
Lieutenant Engineering
Commander Science
Lieutenant Science
Ensign Science

Consoles: 2 Eng, 3 Tac, 4 Sci
Base Hull: 27390
Shield Modifier: 1.11
Base Turn: 14

It seems like it might be a mite squishy, but actual testing is probably required to see how low the survivability is. The real problem is the console layout. The FSV-R only has 9 consoles. As mentioned before, every other fleet ship variant has ten consoles. There is one nice thing about the FSV-R: it has a LtC. Tactical bridge officer slot. This is something a lot of science vessel captains, including myself, have wanted for a while.


Given the discrepancies. I would recommend the Science vessel Retrofit be given the same bridge officer layout as the Fleet Science Vessel Retrofit to differentiate it from the Recon Science Vessel, and give us a reason to actually get one. The LtC tac Boff slot is something that has been wanted, so it would be nice to make it somewhat accessible, and without it, the SV-R doesn't really have anything going for it. The Fleet Science vessel Refit, needs another console; given the tactical bent the ship has, I recommend giving it a 4th tactical slot. I feel like both might need a slight HP buff, but that's hard to tell without trying them out.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,093
# 2
07-04-2012, 02:21 AM
what do you expect from a tiny tier 2 ship retrofited to tier 5? im glad they have reduced capability compared to some of the original and truly deserving ships at tier 5. the turn rate is a fair trade off and difference, and it exists mainly so the nova fans can fly their favorite ship. everybody wins. geko acknowledges that the fleet nova having only 9 consoles listed is a mistake on twitter, that willl be fixed before long.

with the fleet nova having the LTC tac station, i think the fleet saber should have a LTC eng station.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,852
# 3
07-04-2012, 02:41 AM
Well, it is a pity and it remains to be seen whether this is an oversight or intentional.

Eitherway, even if it is intentional, it's no-where NEAR enough to stop me from 'purchasing' my T5 Rhode Island the very second the oportunity presents itself!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 635
# 4
07-04-2012, 03:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
what do you expect from a tiny tier 2 ship retrofited to tier 5? im glad they have reduced capability compared to some of the original and truly deserving ships at tier 5. the turn rate is a fair trade off and difference, and it exists mainly so the nova fans can fly their favorite ship. everybody wins. geko acknowledges that the fleet nova having only 9 consoles listed is a mistake on twitter, that willl be fixed before long.
Good to hear that's being fixed. I also don't have a huge issue with reduce capabilities for smaller ships. Naturally they should be less tough, and have less crew. i don't think what tier they are retrofitted from matters that much, though. My point was that, other than th ship model, the Retrofit nova has nothing going for itself. I fly a Luna, and I can say it's turn rate is great, an extra degree a second over it isn't that huge considering you can't fit dual cannons; it isn't enough to make up for the reduced ability to take damage. Science ships currently lack a vessel with a LtC. tac slot, so that right there would be plenty of reason to get a Nova if it had the layout, but, as it stands, you would have to get the Fleet version. A bit less hull and more turn rate would also be in line with a tactical emphasis, since it would be more escort-like.

All ships on the same tier should have at least some parity, the 5.1 or 5.5 or whatever might be a bit stronger with their consoles, but on the whole, they should all be useful in some capacity. With the same layout and consoles, but inferior stats (turn rate excepting) to the Recon, the refit science vessel is obsoleted before even being available.

Quote:
with the fleet nova having the LTC tac station, i think the fleet saber should have a LTC eng station.
I would have no problem with that, though given the greater size and crew of the Fleet Patrol Escort, I think it would make more sense for that ship to be given a LtC engineering and the Sabre to be given the Lt Engineering and Ensign Universal. That would also fit in with lower tier ships having reduce capability. Another thing to note is that there is a Fleet version of the heavy escort carrier, and, while there's no stats available on tribble yet, the base version has a LtC Engineering slot, so it's likely the fleet version has one too. If I had to guess I'd say the FHEC is going to have the same boff layout and another engineering console slot, so it should be just what you're looking for.

I should mention I'm not convinced the Nova is the right fit for the LtC tac boff, but, I can't really think of what would be a good fit. I can't help but feel the Tier 2 ships have just ben stuck wherever they could find place for them, and given the short end of the retrofit stick.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,093
# 5
07-04-2012, 04:20 AM
as far as boff slots go, the patrol escort is beloved as is, many would hate to lose the COM/LTC tac station combo on it. the saber is a new addition, and is really just a small general purpose ship, it would make sense for it to not be so tactically focused, wile at the same time being a tad weak because of its size. a simple escort with a LTC eng station is something i have wanted for a wile, all the extras on the armatige is kind of a turn off.


if any sci ship should have a LTC tac station, its the intrepid, and also an engineering ENS station. the hospital ship should be the fleet sci ship with 5 science consoles and COM/LTC/ENS sci stations. the odds of that happening arent great though, so i can settle on the nova having the LTC tac station.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,118
# 6
07-04-2012, 12:29 PM
Good to hear about the console being added. I think with that (and the Lt. Comm. tac slot), it will become a very fun to fly "cute" ship.

Btw, what console will it be? A third eng? A fifth sci? A fourth tac? The tac would be killer. It would become a more squishy (yet more agressive, with the LtC boff slot) alternative to the Fleet recon. Both the sci and eng slots wouln't hurt either; more shields, more resistance or enhanced sci abilities.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix: Bring in the Allegiance class
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia: Add Tier 6 staple KDF ship types: Carrier and Bird of prey.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var: Give us Asylums for Romulans

Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 635
# 7
07-04-2012, 06:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
as far as boff slots go, the patrol escort is beloved as is, many would hate to lose the COM/LTC tac station combo on it. the saber is a new addition, and is really just a small general purpose ship, it would make sense for it to not be so tactically focused, wile at the same time being a tad weak because of its size. a simple escort with a LTC eng station is something i have wanted for a wile, all the extras on the armatige is kind of a turn off.
I guess I can see not wanting to change the layout on an upgrade of an already established ship. To be honest, I am not entirely sure why the fleet and non -fleet ships would have different layouts at all.

It does seem like the Sabre has gotten the same raw deal as the nova: same setup as an existing ship, but otherwise inferior stats, and thus, no reason to pick it other than the ship model. The Sabre doesn't even get the turn rate bonus like the Nova does. I still think a universal slot would be cool to have on the sabre, have it trade hitpoints for versatility.

I'm not sure what's wrong with the Armitage, you aren't forced to use the hangar or the console (and the fleet version won't come with one), which are the only 'extras' I can think of.
Quote:
if any sci ship should have a LTC tac station, its the intrepid, and also an engineering ENS station. the hospital ship should be the fleet sci ship with 5 science consoles and COM/LTC/ENS sci stations. the odds of that happening arent great though, so i can settle on the nova having the LTC tac station.
I hadn't thought of giving it better engineering capabilities, but I totally agree with you about the Intrepid being the ship with a LtC tactical and tac console. Given what we know about the ship, it was somewhat more militaristic than many other long distance craft. While not a full blown escort, it was said to be somewhat up armed. The Nova, on the other hand, was stated to be a short ranged research craft that just does science stuff; it's basically the oberth replacement. Given that, it would make sense to me for the SV-R and F-SVR to have the layout the LRSV-R has
with the fleet version possibly having 5 science consoles while the LRSV-R and FLSVR-R having the LtC. tec slot and extra tac consoles. Unfortunately, they already gave us a retrofit intrepid with a full on science setup, so changing things could prove problematic.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 235
# 8
07-05-2012, 10:17 AM
Thing is, even the LRSV isn't really "designed" for any one particular thing, unlike the others. It has three science stations, but only four science console slots in comparison to the DSSV's two and five, respectively. I think that's what is going to kill the LRSV when compared to the other science ships: adding another tac slot to a ship designed primarily for science won't help it. Sure, you can run the torp boat like every other science vessel designed for dps, but that's a game-design- and countless-nerfs-fault.

I actually think that the Nova will be used a lot, if nothing else but for the fact that it has higher shields and comparable hull of the MVAE. This lets many escort pilots try out a zippy science vessel that simply decided to swap out its comm tac for a comm sci. Now, I realize the RecSV will still probably out-tank and out-dps the Nova, but I think we can just pin the blame on the devs not tiering these new ship properly...something that is more to the detriment of the new Fleetscort than to the Nova.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,852
# 9
07-05-2012, 10:28 AM
Once I get my Sci-toon in a T5 Rhode Island I will NOT be flying anything else (with that toon anyway).

Intend to stick Tetryon dual beam banks on it and, with it target subsystem and other sci abilities, turn it into a small, nimble, shield melter!
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 81
# 10
07-05-2012, 12:19 PM
Fixing Fleet Science Vessel Retrofit consoles to 3Tact, 3Eng, 4Sci.

Increasing Fleet Science Vessel Retrofit, Science Vessel Retrofit, Science Vessel and Science VEssel Refit turn rate to 15.


thanks
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