Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 324
# 11
07-06-2012, 07:11 AM
I love how the abbreviated thread title is How to spec your escort for DP .
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 514
# 12
07-06-2012, 07:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by quiscustodiet View Post
Yeah, guess there was a more concise way to put it.

But are you sure about the 4 DHCs outperforming 4 DCs in STFs? I'm really not sure either way, so anything you can deliver would be nice.
4x DHC versus 4x DC is theoretically not much difference (except for the +10 severity difference)

Practically however, DHC's perform much better. Why? Not sure. Perhaps because of the difference in Cycles? in Drain? The way the drain works on both?

Or does it have to do with the Arc and the time it requires for all the bolts to fire? Or does ith ave to do with the burst just being better and has more punch to it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xgorillapx View Post
As I stated before, I will say the dual vs dual heavy cannons personal preference, until I see any data showing otherwise.
Everyone will have their opinions. All I could do is write up a detailed guide as to what I have found works, and learned over time. While some people may pick things apart due to heresay and personal preference, this will help a vast majority of new players in escorts. Especially those who are struggling with STF's.
I did some testing recently and it shows (Including crits) that DHC's did more damage overall. Logically. The diffeerence my log testing shows was about exactly that small +10 difference give or take a few.

But, that was against a stationary target. For me, it practical sense, the DHC's hit way and way harder.

DC on the other hand, should give you more benefit with Tet glider, my test also showed the drain increased by using them. Other things to consider is, weapon procs proc more with Dual cannons because of their 1 second shorter Cycle. But will it really be noticable in practical sense? nah.

Also even with the higher Tet glider drain, the DHC were way more beneficial. Perhaps it might have to do with that DC's need more data processing because of the more bolts/hitrecords? My internet connection is not of the best quality and the switch for me to Dual cannons really, really dropped my total damage and burst significantly. Perhaps even this has any effect on the DC vs DHC story? I have a pretty good feeling both this, and the fact that DHC's just hit harder per shot is why they push tru shields much faster and often take a chunk of hull with it (This was a small pvp talk here)

Oh well, perhaps in STF's it really doesnt matter much, I would stick with 4x DHC because in the worst case (IN STF's versus NPC's) the difference is unnoticeable. But I'm pretty sure it wouldnt be worse then DC's.

Last edited by marctraiderz; 07-06-2012 at 08:01 AM.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10
# 13
07-06-2012, 08:36 AM
For STF's I use the defiant retrofit, with 4 forward Disruptor DHC's, along with 3 Disruptor turrets in the back

Never saw the need for torpedoes, due to the reload time

I'd rather dish out regular damage and use the canon rapid fire, rather than torpedo spread 3

I know some people say don't mix/match energy types, but I often wonder how well a mix of disruptor and anti proton would work.

Two Disruptor DHC's and two Antiproton DHC's in the front?
And then three anti proton turrets in the back.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 346
# 14
07-06-2012, 09:09 AM
Not sure where your numbers come from, Maelwys.
Here's my math, I'll list everything for transparency's sake.

1. Assumptions/basic premises:
- No BOFF abilities used. This complicate matters, because BOFF abilities impact weapons in different ways, but it'd be a long process to include them.
- No Tac Consoles. Obvious reasons.
- [Borg] works on all STF targets. I'm not sure this is the case, tbh.
- Power drain works in a cycle, regenerate fully between cycles.
- Critrate=~15%. Because that's around where I usually parse at.
- Crit Severity=+95%. Base+spec+Antiprotons. 105% for DHCs (obv). 75% for Torps (obv).
- Shields don't exist. It's a silly assumption, but we have to go with it to try to justify Torps.

2. [Borg] contribution.
DHC: 1000*7.5%/1.5=+50 DPS.
DC/Turret: 1000*7.5%/.75=+100 DPS.
Photon: 1000/6.5=~+153.85 DPS.

3. Base DPS (50 Power):
[Borg] DHC Mk XII: 589 DPV, firing every 1.5s=~393 DPS. (DC, same DPS)
[Borg] Photon Mk XII: 3744 DPV, firing every 6.5s=576 DPS.
[Borg] Turret Mk XII: 152 DPV, firing every .75s=203 DPS.

4. Critmod.
I'm just using this mod to shorten the lines below:
DHC: .15*2.05+.85=1.1575
DC/Turret: .15*1.95+.85=1.1425
Photon: .15*1.75+.85=1.1125

5. Actual DPS:
Build 1: 4 DHCs, 3 Turrets:
DHC1: Fires at 125 Power, DPS=393*125*.02*1.1575+50=~1188
DHC2: Fires at 125 Power, DPS=393*125*.02*1.1575+50=~1188
DHC3: 113 Power, DPS=393*113*.02*1.1575+50=~1078
DHC4: 101 Power, DPS=393*101*.02*1.1575+50=~969
Turret1: 89 Power, DPS=203*89*.02*1.1425+100=~513
Turret2: 81 Power, DPS=203*81*.02*1.1425+100=~476
Turret3: 73 Power, DPS= 203*73*.02*1.1425+100=~439
Total=1188+1188+1078+969+513+476+439=5851 DPS.

Build 2: 3 DHCs, 1 Photon, 3 Turrets:
DHC1: Fires at 125 Power, DPS=393*125*.02*1.1575+50=~1188
DHC2: Fires at 125 Power, DPS=393*125*.02*1.1575+50=~1188
DHC3: 113 Power, DPS=393*113*.02*1.1575+50=~1078
Photon: DPS=576*1.1125+153.85=~795
Turret1: 101 Power, DPS=203*101*.02*1.1425+100=~568
Turret2: 93 Power, DPS=203*93*.02*1.1425+100=~531
Turret3: 85 Power, DPS=203*85*.02*1.1425+100=~494
Total=1188+1188+1078+795+568+531+494=5842 DPS.

Even making a series of assumptions favouring Torps and fitting something more efficient than the usual Torp used (Quantum), we get worse results.
Admittedly, it's very close, but focused Tac Consoles and BOFFs will widen that gap pretty fast.
Spreading your Consoles and BOFFs mean you drastically lower their efficiency, so as long as 4 Torps/3 Mines builds aren't viable (and they very much aren't), Torps are overall not an efficient choice on Escorts.

And if math isn't sufficient, I also have comparative parse numbers in ISE:
With 3DHCs/1 Quantum, I averaged 4k DPS.
With 4 DHCs, I average 6.5k DPS.
Obviously the BOFF setup was altered to match, but everything else kept constant.
(I can upload them if necessary)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marctraiderz
DC on the other hand, should give you more benefit with Tet glider, my test also showed the drain increased by using them. Other things to consider is, weapon procs proc more with Dual cannons because of their 1 second shorter Cycle. But will it really be noticable in practical sense? nah.
Weapon procs, no. [Borg] procs, yes. As listed above, they get DHCs average +50 DPS from [Borg] procs, DCs average twice that.
That's why, at least on paper, 4 DCs seem better.

If they aren't in practice, then I suppose it's due to some quirkiness in Weapon Drain.
But parses would be nice, general impressions don't quite cut it.

Edit: silly me, "DPS per second".

Last edited by quiscustodiet; 07-06-2012 at 09:25 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 15
07-06-2012, 09:14 AM
I have a defiant retrofit myself, and it was a good ship. My only problem with it, is that I thought having a 3rd tactical ensign slot, as a big waste. I thought getting some additional survivability out of Emergency Power to Shields I or Engineering Team I with the Fleet Escort was much more useful. Granted, survivability isn't the escorts main priority, but in this comparison, nothing is really being sacrificed. Maybe a 2nd Tac Team I ability?

So far with this post, the only real debate has been the DHC's vs. DC's. I'm sure everyone could nit-pick something based on personal preference, but if that's the only thing to be pointed out, I think this is a very good thread. Something like this has been needed, especially with the influx of new players since F2P. Against my better judgement, I've edited the original post to include links to screenshots of my skill points. I'm sure everyone will pick that apart since everyone has their own preferences, but this will give people a good idea of what to and what not to put points into.

Last edited by xgorillapx; 07-06-2012 at 03:00 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 16
07-06-2012, 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by quiscustodiet View Post
Not sure where your numbers come from, Maelwys.
Base DPS readout of the weapon in your inventory tab, as viewed by a character on a ground map (NOT in space).

This cuts out any ship-based modifiers or buffs, including crit severity and crit chance, as well as any damage contribution from skillpoints. It's basically the rawest "base" value I can find. The rated value in the tooltip should translate across to 50 Weapons power without any outside buffs (as that's "100% standard DPS")

The values I listed were estimating damage output over a period of 300 seconds, which was the duration over which Cygone counted the # of torpedos achievable with various combinations of DOFFs back on the old boards.

The table in full is here

[Note that there is indeed an error in my numbers above. Apologies. (and the Borg Proc should also be a little higher for the Turrets, that'll teach me to reply to threads on my lunchbreak using calculations done in "Notepad"...) I was using the wrong # of shots value for 2 Launchers + 2 DOFFs of "147 torpedos over 5 minutes" when it should have been closer to ~120 shots for 2 Purple DOFFs. Technically you can indeed launch ~147/148 Photons in five minutes, which is where you'll basically start to hit a 'hard cap' due to reload times, but that requires either more than two DOFFs or more than two launchers. Assuming 120 shots instead of 147 translates to an average unbuffed value of 1619.2 Torpedo DPS rather than the 1983.52 DPS value I listed above... this is still substantially higher than the DHC value, but not quite as pronounced a difference...]


Quote:
2. [Borg] contribution.
DHC: 1000*7.5%/1.5=+50 DPS.
DC/Turret: 1000*7.5%/.75=+100 DPS.
Photon: 1000/6.5=~+153.85 DPS.
I get the DHC and DC/Turret Proc values, because of the different activation cycles of DCs and DHCs/Turrets. But I'm not sure where you're pulling that Photon value from...?

It is my understanding that the [Borg] proc on Photons triggers on every shot (standard shots, not extra shots from abilities such as TS or HYT). You can therefore basically treat it as an extra 1000 damage per hit. As you add more Projectile Doffs, this will increase. At the global cooldown for projectiles (just short of one torp every two seconds), this will therefore correspond to just short of a free 500 damage per second.

Quote:
firing every 6.5s=576 DPS.
Ah, now I get it. Disregard the above, it appears that your numbers use the base recharge time, which will make the DPS achievable by Projectile Weaponry a LOT worse than is possible with buffs and DOFFs. As I mentioned in my previous post, the trick is to combine the Launchers with Projectile DOFFs. I've found the "sweet spot" on my Guramba to be 2 Launchers plus 2 DOFFs.

If you use the standard recharge time for a Photon Torpedo Launcher (no DOFFs) you're indeed looking at one shot every 6.5 seconds, which translates into roughly 46 shots for each Photon launcher over a five minute period. However with Two Torpedo Launchers and 2x Purple Projectile DOFFs, that will rise to ~120 shots over the same time period: nearly a 50% increase on the original achievable number of shots for each launcher.

Quote:
1 Photon, 3 Turrets
Frankly, I'm not surprised that one photon at base recharge isn't showing good results.

The trick with Projectile DOFFs is that if you have multiple torpedo tubes, each torpedo tube firing has a chance to trigger a cooldown reset on every other tube including itself. So these DOFFs work best with multiple launchers, and you can see this in Cygone's old testing results.

120 Torpedos per five minutes = one every 2.5 seconds instead of one every 6.5 seconds.

Try plugging that into your numbers (losing two DHCs for two launchers, which would also raise the average weapon energy levels a little) and see what difference it makes to a "standard" 4x DHC build. Admittedly though, this does require giving up two DOFF slots. And splitting the Console buffs will eat into achievable DPS unless you're using an "Honor Guard" set.

And, as-ever, I don't recommend this setup for anything other than STFs (and even then, STFs where you'll mainly be concentrating on shooting unshielded Borg Structures and ships with thin shields but masses of Hull points - in other words, "Elite" runs...)

The ranged dropoff damage aspect of Energy weapons compared to Torps is hard to link into the calculations, but in practice it should substantially favour torps in most cases. Whether it can effectively cancel out the reduced damage you'll be doing to shields is another story.

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]

Last edited by maelwy5; 07-06-2012 at 10:41 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 17
07-06-2012, 11:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maelwy5 View Post
120 Torpedos per five minutes = one every 2.5 seconds instead of one every 6.5 seconds.

Try plugging that into your numbers (losing two DHCs for two launchers, which would also raise the average weapon energy levels a little) and see what difference it makes to a "standard" 4x DHC build.
Tried this myself when I got home and checked the maths...

120 shots over 300 seconds for two launchers is an average of 60 shots per launcher. That translates into an average of each launcher firing one shot every 5 seconds instead of the base value of once every 6.5 seconds.

Plugging this new value into your tables, and adjusting for less weapon power drain:

[DPS]
Photon Mk XII: 3744 DPV, firing every 5s=~749 DPS

[Borg] Contribution
Photon: 1000 damage/5 = 200 DPS

Build 3: 2 DHCs, 2 Photon, 3 Turrets:
DHC1: Fires at 125 Power, DPS=393*125*.02*1.1575+50=~1188
DHC2: Fires at 125 Power, DPS=393*125*.02*1.1575+50=~1188
Photon1: DPS=749*1.1125+200=~1033
Photon2: DPS=749*1.1125+200=~1033
Turret1: 113 Power, DPS=203*113*.02*1.1425+100=~624
Turret2: 105 Power, DPS=203*105*.02*1.1425+100=~587
Turret3: 97 Power, DPS=203*97*.02*1.1425+100=~550
Total=1188+1188+1033+1033+624+587+550=6203 DPS.

No Notepad this time, so I think that's right...?

At the extreme end, assuming you're somehow able to slot enough DOFFs to hit the magical 2 second "hard cap" with only 2 photon launchers (very unlikely, but theory is theory...) you'd be looking at 1291 DPS from each photon, for a total of 6719 DPS. But by then Quantums would be better anyway.

Naturally, this should be taken with a pinch of salt due to all the other possible variables...

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]

Last edited by maelwy5; 07-06-2012 at 11:42 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 243
# 18
07-06-2012, 02:12 PM
When using an energy drain build with the Atrox, I noticed that with enough flow capacitors the polaron proc could actually bring probes to a standstill (yes, only by draining energy). So they are actually doing something, and if they can snare, they can also weaken shields, and thus overall, they can increase the damage on moving, shielded targets by a lot.
Don't fall for the fake advertising: Guild Wars 2 is a WoW clone and a poor one too.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 514
# 19
07-06-2012, 02:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xgorillapx View Post
I have a defiant retrofit myself, and it was a good ship. My only problem with it, is that I thought having a 3rd tactical ensign slot, as a big waste. I thought getting some additional survivability out of Emergency Power to Shields I or Engineering Team I with the Fleet Escort was much more useful. Granted, survivability isn't the escorts main priority, but in this comparison, nothing is really being sacrificed. Maybe a 2nd Tac Team I ability?

So far with this post, the only real debate has been the DHC's vs. DC's. I'm sure everyone could nitpick some thign based on personal preference, but if that's the only thing to be pointed out, I think this is a very good thread. Something like this has been needed, especially with the influx of new players since F2P. Against my better judgement, I've edited the original post to include links to screenshots of my skill points. I'm sure everyone will picj that apart since everyone has their own preferences, but this iwll give people a good idea of what to and what not to put points into.
Thats why the Defiant sucks for pure DPS. It comes from DHC's. And in that condition you only need Energy weapon spec, 4 energy consoles and 2 Rapid fires. Its the most efficient and highest damage escort available.

Funny isnt it? Cryptic doesnt know jack about their own system.


Yes, this means a defiant (excluding the cloak) is totally wasted on all those ensign stations. Better go mvam, fleet or better yet Jem hadar.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 20
07-06-2012, 02:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thibash View Post
When using an energy drain build with the Atrox, I noticed that with enough flow capacitors the polaron proc could actually bring probes to a standstill (yes, only by draining energy). So they are actually doing something, and if they can snare, they can also weaken shields, and thus overall, they can increase the damage on moving, shielded targets by a lot.
Yes, this may be somewhat useful against the probes. However a very large amount of the time, you're firing against an inanimate object such as a gate, transformer or generator. These have no subsystems to drain power from. This is where the Polaron weapon type really loses its edge.
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