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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 668
# 41
08-01-2012, 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
This is a very reasonable bit of feedback. We'll definitely take it into consideration.

As for the folks saying "why bother leaving feedback" --- these Mine Changes are currently slated to cook on Tribble for at least a full week before being rolled to Holodeck, per my request. Dismissing your own feedback before even attempting to test the changes is only doing a dis-service to yourself. If you're concerned with changes being made, please go test them and give your honest feedback on their actual utility in combat. Dissecting patch notes can only get you so far, while hands-on experience is invaluable.
I will pull your notes apart one more time... I myself like the changes. Gasp I know right.

I don't do the tribble stuff anymore, I can say that on paper I like the thought behind the changes.

Here is my feed back on it... go further. 5 down to 4... is really not going to cut the spam down... and if they are a viable option then they will be used even more meaning the intentions behind reducing there numbers slightly are for naught.

My suggestion if you are still able to make changes before it goes live... (which some of us still doubt to be frank). Then consider reducing there numbers to 3 and perhaps even 2 out. Play with dmg numbers and procs some more to make it work... but really with all the carriers and the spam those already put out... the thought of every team having at least 2 guys dropping mines all over the place on top really really grates many of us. No testing on Tribble is going to replicate that honestly.... evenings of Pug Arena matches that have a frame rate of a 1912s flip book, does not sound like a way I would choose to spend my evenings in 2012.

Anyway point is I like the direction... I am simply saying take it to the extreme and make them far less spammy... the Stealth factors, and number reductions are good... just go all out on it.... and if at some point you can do the same thing for fighter launches on carriers tbe annoyance factor will drop quite a bit. (not to mention the horrible server lag... really reducing the server load should make everyone at Cryptic happy I would think)
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 668
# 42
08-01-2012, 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
I'm avare of this formula, but for some reason I can't make it apply correctly in this circumstance...
The formula simply calculates the chance of landing ONE proc in a set number...

So if the proc chance is 33% we will set that to X (our chance on each mine)
and if we have 5 out we will set that to Y (number of mines in a cluster)
1 - ( ( 1 - .33 ) ^ 5 ) = 86.5% chance to land ONE proc in a cluster of 5.

The math gets more complicated when trying to calculate the chances of multiple procs... I can say however with 5 out the chances are higher then 33% of landing a multi proc... which is why we all fly around cursing Cronitons when someone is spamming them... OR (*COUGH* CRYPTIC the damn Spam Pets are spamming them).

It applies to this case because under the old system there was a very high chance to get a full 100% chron proc... and a very good chance of getting a 200% chron proc. At least under this new system the math and the likely hood of someone landing a ton of chrons should mean that most people will not be procced to the point of insanity that they can be now.... frankly Chronitons are annoying and they will still be annoying after this change anyway.

PS it seems to me that Cryptic was STARTING to understand high proc chance numbers in this game lead to a ton of hits due to the number of weapon slots and ships in a match. I saw the 15% chance to proc on the new Orb and Recluse Torpedo... and was thinking to myself Hey I think there starting to understand why 33% chances and higher are a really bad idea........ well one step forward... two steps... as they say.

Last edited by husanakx; 08-01-2012 at 05:07 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 43
08-01-2012, 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
This is a very reasonable bit of feedback. We'll definitely take it into consideration.

As for the folks saying "why bother leaving feedback" --- these Mine Changes are currently slated to cook on Tribble for at least a full week before being rolled to Holodeck, per my request. Dismissing your own feedback before even attempting to test the changes is only doing a dis-service to yourself. If you're concerned with changes being made, please go test them and give your honest feedback on their actual utility in combat. Dissecting patch notes can only get you so far, while hands-on experience is invaluable.
Borticus, I really hope you don't get put off from posting here or listening to the board because of a few unfriendly posts, and I mean that sincerely.

What I can't understand is why you unilaterally went with making an entire new proc system for the mines instead of going with what people were saying in the thread a month or so back. No one was claiming that the problem with mines was with their procs; you kind of asked for our input and then threw away just about all of it. It wouldn't even be a big deal except... why ask for it in the first place?

The thing with rolling out a bunch of completely new procs that haven't been seen before is that we can't say how it'll affect the game without a lot of testing, and what's worse is that it wasn't necessary at all; you've made a lot of work for yourself out of nothing.

On a final note... the way I see it, fixing mines would be very simple: make them small (as in three or four) batches of non-targetable deployables, just like torps; shorten the activation time (although keep it as still a non-zero number) and make it so that a full complement does the same or slightly more damage than a torp. This was essentially what everyone was saying in the thread, too.

Last edited by shimmerless; 08-01-2012 at 05:34 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,628
# 44
08-01-2012, 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
This is a very reasonable bit of feedback. We'll definitely take it into consideration.

As for the folks saying "why bother leaving feedback" --- these Mine Changes are currently slated to cook on Tribble for at least a full week before being rolled to Holodeck, per my request. Dismissing your own feedback before even attempting to test the changes is only doing a dis-service to yourself. If you're concerned with changes being made, please go test them and give your honest feedback on their actual utility in combat. Dissecting patch notes can only get you so far, while hands-on experience is invaluable.
i'll start with some known factors, these become known factors after you have pvped enough, and are able to tank multiple people for quite a wile. i don't know if this is within the intended bounds you guys over at cryptic intended for, but this is the current reality of shields and hull and the relationship between healing, resistence and damage between them both. here is the method to staying alive in pvp, this works with all 3 ship types.

start with having 100% up time with EPtS1 or better, and have the 'distribute all' hot key pressed and active constantly. use TSS when ever you see your attacker fire off buffs to temporarily up your resistance and apply a HOT to counter the enhanced damage you are being dealt. when a full on alpha strike is imminent, let the first attack cycle hit your shields, if you have good capacity to rely on, and keep the distribute all button pressed. if the next weapons cycle is going to drop your faceing, then hit TT. his alpha will last 15 seconds, your TT lasts 10.

at this point your capacity will be low, luckily you are cycling EPtS, and you can use it again now to keep shields healthy. if your down to slivers, you then use brace for impact powered up by your shield distribution doffs, to give you the equivalent of TSS 10-25. at this point you rinse and repeat. if your back to nearly no shields, and brace for impact isnt cooled down yet, then and ONLY then, do you use RSP 1 to completely refill your shields. by the time the green diaper has ended, you have 1 or more shield heals ready to use once again. oh, and use A2S to mitigate bleed through damage, HE if you have a facing breached for a second.


did you notice how little hull healing had to do with this tanking method, this foolproof only really valid, tanking method? hull can not be a factor, hull damage for more then a split second is death. if you cant get shields between weapons fire and hull you are dead by the time you count to 3. i generally have 3 in threat detection, 6 in energy hull armor, and 1 to 3 energy armor consoles equipped at all times, and this statement is true even with all that hull resistance stacked.

like i said, all this is known quantities among us. i also know what it will mean to cut the shield part of that explanation in half, the part that accounted for 90%+ of the tanking method i talked about. the result is death for everyone taking fire and getting hit by a transphasic mine. the debuff on shield healing isnt necessarily the killer here, the debuff on shield balancing means you cant close open facing, which means your dead in 3 seconds, it doesn't mater what condition the rest of your shields were in, or how well you can heal them if you cant keep holes closed.

i plan on seeing this myself some time on tribble if possible, but its going to be hard to organize a test that can simulate real world pvp environment conditions with focus fire and then having the rug pulled out from under what is more then 90% of your defense by those mines.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
# 45
08-01-2012, 06:24 PM
what excatly is the point in the transphasic shield debuff?

is it because people are complaining shield heals are too much?
if thats the reason the maybe looking at why that is rather then making a "counter" to it would be better?

same with the shield distrobution, look at why its so powerful (tactical team) and not create a needless counter to it before the power itself has been adjusted.


i thought there was talks at one point to change tactical team?
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 803
# 46
08-01-2012, 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post

like i said, all this is known quantities among us. i also know what it will mean to cut the shield part of that explanation in half, the part that accounted for 90%+ of the tanking method i talked about. the result is death for everyone taking fire and getting hit by a transphasic mine. the debuff on shield healing isnt necessarily the killer here, the debuff on shield balancing means you cant close open facing, which means your dead in 3 seconds, it doesn't mater what condition the rest of your shields were in, or how well you can heal them if you cant keep holes closed.
And exactly this makes those miens especially fatal to cruisers, they are not agile enough to turn to present a different shield facing. While an escort just swings around and zips away.

-= ISE: 12:19 -=- CSE 12:41 -=- KASE 11:59 -=- HSe 8:06 total =-
-= KAGE 5:43 =-
[7:07] [Combat (Self)] Your Dual Disruptor Banks - Overload II deals 123086 (41096) Disruptor Damage(Critical) to Assimilated Carrier.
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,150
# 47
08-01-2012, 06:32 PM
The design philosophy that led to an additional proc being added to Transphasic is as follows:

Shield Bleed Thru on a single type of weapon means very little unless everyone in a particular team is using similar weaponry. In fact, high-bleed Transphasics could potentially be seen as less team-friendly than Quantums (e.g.) because they have a lesser effect on the enemies' shields, which your teammates need to have dropped in order to reach their maximum DPS potential. Additionally, hitting somebody's hull while their shields are still up means they're likely to have ample opportunity to recover from that hit before they are defeated.

Or, to put it another way, ignoring an enemy's shields is ultimately a bad idea. We wanted to find a way to offset that.

Some of you will be happy to hear that the current proc is, we've decided, far too PvP-effective, and PvE-ineffective, to be the final iteration that goes live. As a result, it will be removed in a future build and is likely to be replaced with an effect that will apply for both Mines and Torpedoes.

The design of this potential Transphasic proc replacement is still in discussion so I'd rather not spill any half-complete details at this time. As soon as we've got some more solid plans, I'll be happy to discuss them.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Systems Design
"Play smart!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Kurland here...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 48
08-01-2012, 06:41 PM
In theory I don't think a proc that cuts up shield heals is a bad idea at all. I think the bigger problem was with the shield distro debuff, which can effectively be an instant death sentence against one or more people who are half-competent (there's a video Thissler made somewhere which shows where ignoring Tactical Team gets you, i.e. the respawn point).

Again, I can understand if the dev team believes that shields have gotten out of hand (although I don't think they give us credit for the work we put into maxing out shield performance... your shields are still paper thin in this game if you don't know what you're doing).

A better design philosophy, though, might be to fix transphasics in their own way and not use them as a crutch for nerfing shield tanking. Making one weapon too desirable or a major element of game balance is what's led to the whole mess with phasers, and to a lesser extent polarons (which were ironically buffed way too hard as an ill-fated way to try and balance phasers). There shouldn't be one item or weapon type that's mandatory to play the game properly; balancing shield powers shouldn't have anything to do with weapon procs. In a game I used to play at the international level (DotA) there were certain items which were far too strong and cost-effective and effectively redefined the game by their use (BKB, Guinsoo's), except in STO it's even worse because you're not working for/paying for powers over the course of a match.

~my 2 centz~

Last edited by shimmerless; 08-01-2012 at 06:48 PM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,550
# 49
08-01-2012, 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
The design philosophy that led to an additional proc being added to Transphasic is as follows:

Shield Bleed Thru on a single type of weapon means very little unless everyone in a particular team is using similar weaponry. In fact, high-bleed Transphasics could potentially be seen as less team-friendly than Quantums (e.g.) because they have a lesser effect on the enemies' shields, which your teammates need to have dropped in order to reach their maximum DPS potential. Additionally, hitting somebody's hull while their shields are still up means they're likely to have ample opportunity to recover from that hit before they are defeated.

Or, to put it another way, ignoring an enemy's shields is ultimately a bad idea. We wanted to find a way to offset that.

Some of you will be happy to hear that the current proc is, we've decided, far too PvP-effective, and PvE-ineffective, to be the final iteration that goes live. As a result, it will be removed in a future build and is likely to be replaced with an effect that will apply for both Mines and Torpedoes.

The design of this potential Transphasic proc replacement is still in discussion so I'd rather not spill any half-complete details at this time. As soon as we've got some more solid plans, I'll be happy to discuss them.
you guys ever gonna tweak Tricobalts to work with mine scatter Boff powers?
HAIL HYDRA!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I can haz joystick!
MMOs aren't charities. Corporations are supposed to make a profit. It's what they do.
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,150
# 50
08-01-2012, 06:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
you guys ever gonna tweak Tricobalts to work with mine scatter Boff powers?
You mean like we currently have working on Tribble?

Yeah, we might get around to it.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Systems Design
"Play smart!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Kurland here...
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