Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 41
08-06-2012, 01:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
1) In your torpedo tube vs 4th DHC maths are you including the loss of damage from falloff? Many times in STFs it is difficult to stay 2km-5km from your target depending on the situation which is why I typically pack a torpedo.
Generally range can be more variable than constant, which makes it hard to factor into DPS calculations... (if you're flying towards a foe, your damage will go up over time until you're within 1-2KM) however you can estimate the effects of the damage falloff at different ranges against Beams or Cannon Damage.

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 42
08-06-2012, 06:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mehen View Post
This is a complete guess, but when you're not a tac captain the value of attack patterns kinda diminishes. Sure, a -50 damage resistance through AP:B is nice, but with no points invested it still causes a -33 damage resistance hit; with Omega III, you're losing 8% damage buff, 12 damage resistance, and a 20% boost to your defense.

Those are pretty big losses.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mehen View Post
Imho, Alpha is what makes people crazy for SAP, and not the others. So, if you're an engi or sci (especially sci, with sensor scan debuff which mimics AP:B), the need to boost your two patterns over other things just isn't as needed.

Never played a tac, so I can simply estimate, but the patterns are just fine without any points invested for engineers and science officers.

You shouldn't be deciding your investment into Starship Attack Patterns based on captain.

While Tacs obviously get the most out of it due to Attack Pattern Alpha, it's a tier 1 skill that only costs 1K skill points per rank with a significant payoff.

So you really want to decided by the ship you intend to fly as opposed to your captain's discipline, and how many attack pattern skills you plan to have slotted.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 235
# 43
08-06-2012, 12:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Those are pretty big losses.





You shouldn't be deciding your investment into Starship Attack Patterns based on captain.

While Tacs obviously get the most out of it due to Attack Pattern Alpha, it's a tier 1 skill that only costs 1K skill points per rank with a significant payoff.

So you really want to decided by the ship you intend to fly as opposed to your captain's discipline, and how many attack pattern skills you plan to have slotted.

Eh, like I said, it was a guess. I fly science ships almost exclusively nowadays, and none of my builds requires an AP.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 44
08-06-2012, 01:34 PM
The attack patterns can be VERY useful, however in an escort with all cannons and turrets, the rapid fire/scatter volley appear to be much more useful.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,644
# 45
08-06-2012, 04:19 PM
Cannon Scatter 2 and 3 and Torpedo Spread 2 and 3. That leaves room for a Beta if you want one. If you have the Boffs and the Ability to switch them out in a timely fashion then have the single target versions of those abilities. If you do NOT have the ability to do so, keep only the AOE versions.

I prefer to sacrifice one turret and Beta to a mine launcher and a dispersal pattern for two reasons. First is that I can't make things more dead than they already are. If the objects are dying in one cycle of aoe, then beta isn't really required. And second is that the potential utility of the mines in general can be considerable.

AOE vs single target you don't even need to think about. FAW isn't even in the same class as Scatter or Spread so don't even consider it at the expense of either of those abilities.

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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 46
08-06-2012, 06:34 PM
Numbers-wise,

You can either have APB3 or CSV3 in the Commander slot:

APB3 (+50%) and CSV2 (+20%) = +80% Cannon Damage output to 3 targets
APB2 (+40%) and CSV3 (+25%) = +75% Cannon Damage output to 3 targets
APB3 (+50%) and CSV1 (+15%) = +72.5% Cannon Damage output to 3 targets

Never mind the fact that APB3 also works against your torps, pets, fighters, teammates, deployable damage patches, gravity wells... etc etc. and lasts for fifteen seconds instead of CSV's ten. Honestly, the rank of CSV you use isn't important at all, the damage multiplier it grants is tiny, the main function of it is to turn your damage into an AoE.

---------------

If you throw in Torpedo Spread:

TS3 = +137% versus 5 targets
TS2 = +107% versus 4 targets
TS1 = +078% versus 3 targets

Assuming you have only one Commander slot, and one LtCom slot "spare" to choose from (APO1 anyone?!?):
APB3 and TS3 and CSV1 = +72.5% cannon fire (3 targets), +255.5% Torp fire (5 targets)
APB3 and TS2 and CSV2 = +75.0% cannon fire (3 targets), +210.5% Torp fire (4 targets)

So it's better to go for TS3 and CSV1 rather than TS2 and CSV2.

What about if you want to include a copy of CRF?

APB3 and TS3 and CRF1 = +95% cannon fire (1 target), +255.5% Torp fire (5 targets)
APB3 and TS2 and CRF2 = +110% cannon fire (1 target), +210.5% Torp fire (4 targets)

---------------

OK, what about if you want to run 2 copies of "APB" for sustained damage over time: APB3 is a given, but is it better to run APB2 or APB1 for the second copy?

APB1 and TS3 and CSV1 = +49.5% cannon fire (3 targets), +208.1% Torp fire (5 targets)
APB2 and TS2 and CSV1 = +61.0% cannon fire (3 targets), +189.8% Torp fire (4 targets)

So APB2 + TS2 is better damage over time, but APB1 + TS3 is better spike damage.

TL;DR: Go for APB3 first and foremost, then Torp Spread. Cannon Abilities last (CRF before CSV if you're taking both) and if you're taking a second copy of APB, it's up to you where you slot it. Just remember that CSV1 is nearly as good as CSV3.

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]

Last edited by maelwy5; 08-07-2012 at 04:10 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 235
# 47
08-06-2012, 06:41 PM
I...I was told there would be no math.


Seriously though, cheers on the advice. Now my (hopefully) fleet nova, when obtained, will be better than I thought it'd be.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 42
# 48
08-06-2012, 08:11 PM
First of all... this is a FANTASTIC thread. I was glued to the monitor for every page. Great info.

On my main STF/PVP TAC I run 4 AP DHCs and 3 AP Turrets and do very well in STFs and pretty much rule in PVP with fleetmates. Originally had this build in a MVAM minus the MV console (don't see the point) and have now moved it over to the Heavy Escort Carrier. I've never parsed data but it doesn't feel *quite* as good as it did in the MVAM, but the jury is still out.

I'm kinda gun shy on messing with this alt very much as he does so well. HOWEVER, I have another TAC alt that has the JH Attach Ship and I'm going to give the torps a try and see how it goes.

Very much appreciate this thread and I'll be pointing it out to the TACs in my fleet.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 49
08-08-2012, 06:33 PM
Definitely give the torps a shot. Also give the Fleet Escort a shot. I think you may like it if the armitage seems a bit big for your liking. Another thing. (Even if they're just chea[ ones to try out) see how you like 2 DC's and 1 DHC. When I went with 3 DHC's, it felt like my cannons were choking and not firing nearly as fast as they should. It feels much better with 2 DC's and 1 DHC.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 346
# 50
08-10-2012, 06:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mehen View Post
This is a complete guess, but when you're not a tac captain the value of attack patterns kinda diminishes. Sure, a -50 damage resistance through AP:B is nice, but with no points invested it still causes a -33 damage resistance hit; with Omega III, you're losing 8% damage buff, 12 damage resistance, and a 20% boost to your defense. Imho, Alpha is what makes people crazy for SAP, and not the others. So, if you're an engi or sci (especially sci, with sensor scan debuff which mimics AP:B), the need to boost your two patterns over other things just isn't as needed.

Never played a tac, so I can simply estimate, but the patterns are just fine without any points invested for engineers and science officers.

True, a Tactical Captain gets more mileage from points in Starship Attack Patterns; but is that significant enough to base your build around? No.
Ship type affects whether you should invest in Attack Patterns or not a lot more than Captain career. And in the case of an Escort, it's always a good idea to put at least 6 in there (preferably 9).

Alpha amounts to much less than Beta, Omega or even Delta when all is said and done.


Maelwys: APB being a debuff is both beneficial and detrimental:
- On the positive side, as you mentionned, it affects everyone shooting at your target.
- On the negative side, if everyone's using it, it goes to waste.
That's why I don't run APB3/2 in PUGs, you never know if you're going to run into a team which has them or not.
In premades, it's great to have someone who can maintain APB 2/3 most of the time, but in PUGs, better have 5*APO than 5*APB and waste 4 of those.

Last edited by quiscustodiet; 08-10-2012 at 06:16 AM.
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