Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,160
# 31
08-09-2012, 03:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
oh man, came sooo close to stoped reading here. pve? really?
Why exactly? We were discussing using these weapons in PvE, do you have a problem with PvE?


Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
a galaxy X could keep a high DC up time on any targets in an stf. there has never been a situation in an stf were i thought a single cannon would do a better job then a DHC. an 8 beam array broad side would be best if you want to move and shoot. against fast moving targets, a bug with DHC properly flown can keep DHC in arc as easily as any other escort could keep single cannons in arc.
Galaxy X with cannons is almost next to worthless in STFs nowadays unless you are just sitting still 8 km from a gate and as for PvP, yeah see loads of Gal-Xs in Kerrat NOT for a good reason. The only way to get the lance on a target in Kerrat is by sheer luck or using the Subspace Jump console, rest of the time you're a sitting duck that turns like a whale with a huge target on it's head.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
ive heard the difference even with100% up time gets quite noticeable, to say nothing of the real world disadvantages with DCs. theirs the way that it fires, a DC fires for the entire length of its cycle, a DHC deals all its damage in the first second with a moment of down time after. if you get someone in your firing arc for a second, you can fire your DHCs for full effect, if you were using DCs you would need to keep your target in arc the entire cycle to deal all the damage. since its firing so immediately, the power drain doesn't effect it as dramatically. every pulse of a weapons cycle deals damage based on the exact power level at the moment of firing, the 3rd and 4th shot will certainly deal less damage then the first 2, wile a dhc's 2 shots would deal damage at the nearly the same power level. the only advantage a DC has is its ability to best utilize per shot boosting abilities, like DEM and tetryon glider.
This whole firing cycle debate is interesting. Can you list your source for this information, preferably from a Cryptic Dev, not a fan site. Personally I've never seen anything from anyone at Cryptic that specifies the exact way any of their weapons work.

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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 32
08-09-2012, 05:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattjohnsonva View Post
Galaxy X with cannons is almost next to worthless in STFs nowadays unless you are just sitting still 8 km from a gate
STFs require very little in the way of mobility, and sitting so far away using cannons (as opposed to beams) is a surefire way of doing poor DPS.

The Dreadnought is the only standard Federation cruiser able to equip Dual Cannons.

If you feel the 180' arc of cannons outweights the extra DPS you'd get by upgrading to Heavys, then that's entirely your choice. However, in a fight where it's easy to bring narrow weapon facings to bear on your target, you'll inflict worse damage than someone with Duals. There is no argument possible here: DHCs and DCs have higher damage than Cs. So, assuming that both can be brought to bear, Cs will inflict less damage every time.

In the bulk of PVE encounters, STFs included, it is trivially simple to bring the most narrow weapons to bear on your target. NPCs are simply not smart enough to dodge out of your arcs; and you can even easilly memorise their spawn points in certain missions (The Cure, for example). In these situations, the one single benefit of using Cannons (when your ship is capable of using DCs/DHCs) becomes pointless.

Concerning your earlier comment: "As for procs, single cannons have the faster firing rate and therefore the greatest chance of a proc." - Please re-check your stats. Procs inflict per cycle, not per shot. DCs (NOT DHCs) and Cannons have identical firing times and recharge times, so their cycle times are always going to be identical.

Quote:
and as for PvP, yeah see loads of Gal-Xs in Kerrat NOT for a good reason. The only way to get the lance on a target in Kerrat is by sheer luck or using the Subspace Jump console, rest of the time you're a sitting duck that turns like a whale with a huge target on it's head.
You realise that you were the first person who even mentioned PVP in this thread? And then you called out DontDrunk for concentrating on your PVP claims?

Generally speaking, when someone asks a question about AoE damage abilities, PVP is not what they have in mind. There's a good reason why effective PVP builds tend to favour Single Target Burst damage, which neither of the powers mentioned in the OP are examples of.


Quote:
This whole firing cycle debate is interesting. Can you list your source for this information, preferably from a Cryptic Dev, not a fan site. Personally I've never seen anything from anyone at Cryptic that specifies the exact way any of their weapons work.
Go to any space map (not sector space, an actual map).

Open your powers list - "P".
Click on a weapon.
Look at the right-hand pane.

Observe the stats on cycles timings and recharge. Use Buffs, Fire your weapons, adjust your weapons power. Note how the values change.

[There ARE other sources, taken from ridiculously large and widespread amounts of Damage Parses and Player Testing, but this is pretty much as close as an "official" source as you're likely to find.]

And remember, when looking at your DPS readouts, that if you're trying to calculate potential DPS against an actual enemy, you'll also need to factor in resistances and your range modifiers (cannons having a much heavier drop over distance than beams) as well as buffs and weapons energy drain.

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]

Last edited by maelwy5; 08-09-2012 at 05:38 AM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 49
# 33
08-09-2012, 07:25 AM
Regarding the single cannon to dual heavy cannon argument, I think both sides are right. If you have a stationary target, dual heavys will always win. If you're fighting something with a lot of mobility, single cannons do allow greater time on target. I also find that with single cannons it gives me much better ability to stay firing into a downed shield facing if they're turning, especially on ships with higher turn rates.

I also have noticed that when using CSV SC seem to be better at hitting ships spread farther out than DHCs. I don't know how wide the CSV cone is and if it's origin axis is based on facing or angle to target (pretty sure the latter), but it's something to consider and research.

But it pays to note that SC and DHC setups can use the same boffs, same consoles, same everything. I keep a set of DHCs and a set of SCs and swap between them depending on what I'm playing or even what I feel like at the moment. You can even swap mid mission quickly if you need to.

For STFs like KASE and CSE where everything is stationary or slow and packed together, never changing course, I run DHCs. For the fleet space battles I find SCs work better as the targets go down fast and I can get my SCs firing on the next target much sooner. Also, any CSV advantage comes into play.

A SC escort does play differently than a DHC escort. Sometimes it's just fun to mix it up. And you're not necessarily toileting your DPS.
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# 34
08-09-2012, 07:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maelwy5 View Post
You realise that you were the first person who even mentioned PVP in this thread? And then you called out DontDrunk for concentrating on your PVP claims?
Read the whole thread again.

Other than that some very interesting info, all I would add is yes of course in STFs it's possible to sit right where you want to be to more or less guarantee the DHC will be useful, but the second that STF goes **** up with raptors and BoPs coming from all angles you're lost. In a perfect world DHCs would be my first choice (although not for PvP) but in reality I prefer the greater arc over a few more DPS any day and if any of the DHC heros want to go up against my bug with lowly single cannons I'll prove it or eat my implants LOL.

Never noticed info on cycle times or procs using the method you describe, but I will certainly have a look as soon as the server is back up, after I've checked to see if we can now transfer STF gear between toons (please please please).

Cheers
Matt

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Career Officer
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# 35
08-09-2012, 07:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by caelrassto View Post
Regarding the single cannon to dual heavy cannon argument, I think both sides are right. If you have a stationary target, dual heavys will always win. If you're fighting something with a lot of mobility, single cannons do allow greater time on target. I also find that with single cannons it gives me much better ability to stay firing into a downed shield facing if they're turning, especially on ships with higher turn rates.

I also have noticed that when using CSV SC seem to be better at hitting ships spread farther out than DHCs. I don't know how wide the CSV cone is and if it's origin axis is based on facing or angle to target (pretty sure the latter), but it's something to consider and research.

But it pays to note that SC and DHC setups can use the same boffs, same consoles, same everything. I keep a set of DHCs and a set of SCs and swap between them depending on what I'm playing or even what I feel like at the moment. You can even swap mid mission quickly if you need to.

For STFs like KASE and CSE where everything is stationary or slow and packed together, never changing course, I run DHCs. For the fleet space battles I find SCs work better as the targets go down fast and I can get my SCs firing on the next target much sooner. Also, any CSV advantage comes into play.

A SC escort does play differently than a DHC escort. Sometimes it's just fun to mix it up. And you're not necessarily toileting your DPS.
Perfectly put.

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Captain
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# 36
08-09-2012, 08:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattjohnsonva View Post
in reality I prefer the greater arc over a few more DPS any day and if any of the DHC heros want to go up against my bug with lowly single cannons I'll prove it or eat my implants LOL.
I suggest reposting this challenge here

Quote:
Never noticed info on cycle times or procs using the method you describe, but I will certainly have a look as soon as the server is back up
There are a few values of interest on the screen:

You'll see a value for the time taken to fire the weapon once, alongside a "maximum" value e.g. 0.5 sec, maximum of 2 secs. This means that it takes the weapon 0.5 seconds to fire, and that it can maintain fire for a maximum of 2 seconds - in other words, it can fire up to 4 shots over 2 seconds.

Underneath this value is the recharge time of the weapon (Note that the recharge time can be reduced by certain buffs, such as the MACO set's 2-piece bonus). Adding the "maximum" firing time to the recharge time will give you the total time taken for one complete weapon activation cycle sequence.

from here:

Each weapon can proc individually (once per activation sequence) and ignores the effects of other weapons, regardless of the source. Meaning that if 3 people are firing 3 phaser weapons each at a single target, that's 9 separate chances to be hit with the Subsystem Offline proc, per activation cycle.

The same mechanics are true of all such weapon procs.


Now Borticus was talking about Phasers, but the only weapon types that work differently to this are Antiprotons (since their bonus is a flat Crit Severity buff) and Disruptors (since the debuff is implemented as a power on your enemy it can't stack from multiple sources, but it can be refreshed from multiple sources)

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# 37
08-09-2012, 08:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by caelrassto View Post
Regarding the single cannon to dual heavy cannon argument, I think both sides are right. If you have a stationary target, dual heavys will always win. If you're fighting something with a lot of mobility, single cannons do allow greater time on target. I also find that with single cannons it gives me much better ability to stay firing into a downed shield facing if they're turning, especially on ships with higher turn rates.

I also have noticed that when using CSV SC seem to be better at hitting ships spread farther out than DHCs. I don't know how wide the CSV cone is and if it's origin axis is based on facing or angle to target (pretty sure the latter), but it's something to consider and research.

But it pays to note that SC and DHC setups can use the same boffs, same consoles, same everything. I keep a set of DHCs and a set of SCs and swap between them depending on what I'm playing or even what I feel like at the moment. You can even swap mid mission quickly if you need to.

For STFs like KASE and CSE where everything is stationary or slow and packed together, never changing course, I run DHCs. For the fleet space battles I find SCs work better as the targets go down fast and I can get my SCs firing on the next target much sooner. Also, any CSV advantage comes into play.

A SC escort does play differently than a DHC escort. Sometimes it's just fun to mix it up. And you're not necessarily toileting your DPS.
i share this opinion. before this thread i was convinced that single cannons are very very inferior to DC/DHC
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# 38
08-09-2012, 08:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maelwy5 View Post
I suggest reposting this challenge here



There are a few values of interest on the screen:

You'll see a value for the time taken to fire the weapon once, alongside a "maximum" value e.g. 0.5 sec, maximum of 2 secs. This means that it takes the weapon 0.5 seconds to fire, and that it can maintain fire for a maximum of 2 seconds - in other words, it can fire up to 4 shots over 2 seconds.

Underneath this value is the recharge time of the weapon (Note that the recharge time can be reduced by certain buffs, such as the MACO set's 2-piece bonus). Adding the "maximum" firing time to the recharge time will give you the total time taken for one complete weapon activation cycle sequence.

from here:

Each weapon can proc individually (once per activation sequence) and ignores the effects of other weapons, regardless of the source. Meaning that if 3 people are firing 3 phaser weapons each at a single target, that's 9 separate chances to be hit with the Subsystem Offline proc, per activation cycle.

The same mechanics are true of all such weapon procs.


Now Borticus was talking about Phasers, but the only weapon types that work differently to this are Antiprotons (since their bonus is a flat Crit Severity buff) and Disruptors (since the debuff is implemented as a power on your enemy it can't stack from multiple sources, but it can be refreshed from multiple sources)

Cheers for that, very useful indeed.

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Posts: 6,758
# 39
08-09-2012, 10:27 AM
he wasn't the first to talk about pvp necessarily. if i give information you can assume im talking from a pvp perspective. but anything that works in pvp, dominates any pve content.

nothing in an stf moves faster then a snails pace, using a single cannon there to try to keep your target in arc is not necessary. there is 0 difficulty in keeping dhc's pointed. now in pvp were ships move sooo much faster, you may be on to something. thats why i basically had to facepalm when you used KASE as an example.

that DHC vs DC info i mentioned, all you need to do is use them in action long enough to preceave these things. everything i said is based off my own observation and knowledge of how energy, fireing cycle, and damage works. its all accurate

DCs/SCS/Ts have the fastest cycle rate, so they will proc most often. note that a proc can only occur once per fireing cycle, not once per shot. glider and dem are per shot 'proc' abilities though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by maelwy5 View Post
(Note that the recharge time can be reduced by certain buffs, such as the MACO set's 2-piece bonus). Adding the "maximum" firing time to the recharge time will give you the total time taken for one complete weapon activation cycle sequence.
what? oh no it doesn't. +5% power recharge speed does not increase the speed of your weapons cycling, it has the same effect an eps console has, which just boosts power transfer and recharge rate
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 40
08-09-2012, 11:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
he wasn't the first to talk about pvp necessarily.
Post #15, above:

Quote:
Think about it, the guy above who said not to bite has given you a setup that's OK for PvE but in PvP he's gonna die real quick against a fast moving escort that can stay outside the arc.
Quote:
Quote:
(Note that the recharge time can be reduced by certain buffs, such as the MACO set's 2-piece bonus).
what? oh no it doesn't. +5% power recharge speed does not increase the speed of your weapons cycling, it has the same effect an eps console has, which just boosts power transfer and recharge rate
Sorry, afraid you have it wrong there.

The 5% power recharge speed granted by the MACO set bonus is a flat 5% recharge time buff to all your ABILITIES. (e.g. cooldown times for all powers are reduced, like when using Aux2Bat with Technician DOFFs)

+ Screenshot #1 (Unbuffed)
+ Screenshot #2 (With MACO Bonus, note recharge time change from 2.0 to 1.9)

I've been doing DPS tests for the better part of a fortnight, and I keep kicking myself whenever I forget to remove the MACO deflector because this happens and it skews the results

Whereas an EPS Console just influences your SHIP POWER SYSTEM TRANSFER RATE (e.g. the amount of time it takes to go from 100 engine power to 50 engine power)

I suppose the way the M.A.C.O. text description is worded it's a bit unclear though...

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