Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 961
# 11
08-12-2012, 07:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy01010 View Post
Actually, now I'm remembering why people say 7 cannon builds weren't as viable; power drain. Has that been fixed up?
I believe that has been fixed and all-cannon power drain is no longer an issue. Not so sure about beam arrays (many beam-boat cruiser builds still put a torp up front), but that's neither here nor there.

Personally I prefer to put a torp up front, even if it's not "optimal", because I like torpedoes! Besides, on an Armitage there's an extra, minor incentive to use a torp (and 1 torp console), namely the Torpedo Point Defense System. With Spread Shot you can put out a ridiculous number of torpedoes in a pinch, which looks great. That said, when I transition to Elite STFs I may go full-cannons, if only because I'd rather not let a team down just because I like torpedoes.

Quote:

2. Is APO I/CRF III or APO III/CRF II better for your DPS?

3. As a fleet 'scort, would I be going 2xEPtS I/ASiF I in the engineering department, for best effect, or should I use RSP? (keep in mind, I have my Sci BOff set to PH I/HE II)
2 and 3: On my Armitage (and a possible Patrol Escort) my Engi captain personally mounts:

CDR Tac: Torp Spread I, CSV I, APBII, CRFIII
LTCD Tac: TT I, CRF I
EN Tac: TT1
ENG: EPTS I, RSP I, EPTS III
SCI: TSS I, HE II

It's not ideal. I plan to drop TSSI, which is redundant considering how many shield boosters Engi captains get, and put in Polarize Hull to beat the tractors. I prefer APB to APO (if forced to choose) because the APB debuff is more team-supportive. When I make the transition to full cannons I'll probably find a way to throw in more scatter volley.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 19
# 12
08-12-2012, 11:38 AM
On my tac/patscort I run all energy weapons for speccing/not having to worry about torps on shields in PVP/running out of boff slots. Borg, however, tend to have a heck of a lot more hull HP then shield and also lack the ability to redistribute shields, thus making general torp spam a lot more useful versus them if you build for it. A 2x quantum torp build + 2 or 3 projectile doffs to generate constant quantum launches can be quite entertaining in STFs, especially on one of the escorts with 3 tac ensigns where your other option would be a beam skill of some sort.

I prefer A2SIF for STFs; RSP just doesn't save often enough compared to the constant hull heals/resists A2SIF gives, and a couple of BFI doffs (Rolor Nebula) can provide a useful shield heal under fire in general. There are, however, PVE sites with much higher incoming energy damage (i.e. trying to win SB24) where RSP shines - keep both around

You can use CRF over CSV while learning if you're worried about aggro management (and is also very nice for shooting single large HP targets); APB3 is almost non-negotiable though due to its large benefits for everybody's damage. APD can also be useful (esp. with its defense bonus), but that takes a bit more management if someone else has aggression. I've been running 2x APB/2x CSV (with an emergency APO; PH takes up a slot that can be used for a team heal) in pve lately, but then I'm not as worried about tractors as I used to be (I might even drop that APO ...) >.>
----
Matthew/Shiduri@zekesulastin

Last edited by zekesulastin; 08-12-2012 at 11:42 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8
# 13
08-12-2012, 01:07 PM
I've been taking the advice in this thread, put together a build I think would work nicely. Currently on the fence over Hull Plating 9 vs. Intertial Dampeners 6, but otherwise think this would work well.
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skil...Fleetscort_242
Quote:
Originally Posted by zekesulastin View Post
On my tac/patscort I run all energy weapons for speccing/not having to worry about torps on shields in PVP/running out of boff slots. Borg, however, tend to have a heck of a lot more hull HP then shield and also lack the ability to redistribute shields, thus making general torp spam a lot more useful versus them if you build for it. A 2x quantum torp build + 2 or 3 projectile doffs to generate constant quantum launches can be quite entertaining in STFs, especially on one of the escorts with 3 tac ensigns where your other option would be a beam skill of some sort.
True, but speccing into torps reduces the pool for other skills. Plus they just don't give the same satisfaction as watching a Sphere melt in 2/3 volleys (have done it already).
Quote:
Originally Posted by zekesulastin View Post
I prefer A2SIF for STFs; RSP just doesn't save often enough compared to the constant hull heals/resists A2SIF gives, and a couple of BFI doffs (Rolor Nebula) can provide a useful shield heal under fire in general. There are, however, PVE sites with much higher incoming energy damage (i.e. trying to win SB24) where RSP shines - keep both around
True, I do have a bunch of free BOff slots. Suppose it's just the points that are significant, can play around with BOffs quite a bit later on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zekesulastin View Post
You can use CRF over CSV while learning if you're worried about aggro management (and is also very nice for shooting single large HP targets); APB3 is almost non-negotiable though due to its large benefits for everybody's damage. APD can also be useful (esp. with its defense bonus), but that takes a bit more management if someone else has aggression. I've been running 2x APB/2x CSV (with an emergency APO; PH takes up a slot that can be used for a team heal) in pve lately, but then I'm not as worried about tractors as I used to be (I might even drop that APO ...) >.>
PH might take up a team heal, but you are an escort. Plus, running APO would drop your main DPS skill down to rank 1 half the time, dropping overall DPS, not to mention screwing up the Attack Pattern cycle. PH just puts HE on cool-down, which in my case should be covered with ASiF. I might just try it though, see if the heals help me avoid getting ganked because everyone else died. Thanks.

EDIT: Speaking of which, could someone point me to the DPS monitor I read about all the time? Would be helpful in me trying to decide what BOffs to run with.

Last edited by crazy01010; 08-12-2012 at 01:31 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 152
# 14
08-12-2012, 03:39 PM
You have way too many skills at 9; be aware of the extreme diminishing returns associated with many of those.

Take a look at this chart for an idea of how little you're gaining for moving from 6 to 9, at significant XP cost: http://home.comcast.net/~amicus/Skil...%20Effects.htm

The build I linked on the previous page was developed with these diminishing returns in mind, and attempts to optimize overall performance; don't neglect the benefits of boosting aux power or weapons power either; 3 points in each means stronger heals, and more power to allocate to other systems. I personally have weapons power at 125/95, giving me 5 more points of power to put into say, shields.

I can very definitely advise you to not put warp core efficiency or warp core potential past six; you might gain 1 or 2 points of power for a skill investment that would be more wisely spent boosting subsystem repair to resist borg boarding parties or power insulators to resist their draining tractor beams.
12th Fleet | Sad Pandas | Starfleet M.A.C.O.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8
# 15
08-12-2012, 04:51 PM
Heard from a friend that subsystem repair actually doesn't do anything, changed my build up earlier because of that.

I did look at that site and think about it a bit, shifted a couple of my points around - in engineering mostly. Same link.

Last edited by crazy01010; 08-12-2012 at 05:02 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 346
# 16
08-12-2012, 05:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naldoran View Post
You have way too many skills at 9; be aware of the extreme diminishing returns associated with many of those.

Take a look at this chart for an idea of how little you're gaining for moving from 6 to 9, at significant XP cost: http://home.comcast.net/~amicus/Skil...%20Effects.htm

The build I linked on the previous page was developed with these diminishing returns in mind, and attempts to optimize overall performance; don't neglect the benefits of boosting aux power or weapons power either; 3 points in each means stronger heals, and more power to allocate to other systems. I personally have weapons power at 125/95, giving me 5 more points of power to put into say, shields.

I can very definitely advise you to not put warp core efficiency or warp core potential past six; you might gain 1 or 2 points of power for a skill investment that would be more wisely spent boosting subsystem repair to resist borg boarding parties or power insulators to resist their draining tractor beams.
The diminishing returns are hardly a secret, they're listed in the Skill tree: points 1 to 3 give 18 "Skill Ranks" each, points 4 to 6 give 10, points 7 to 9 give 5.

But diminishing returns doesn't mean negligible returns.

Examining your published build:

1. Non-maxed Energy Weapon Spec:
Assuming a base 13% critrate and 80% crit severity (base+DHC+Purple Weapon):
6 points: 14.7% critrate, 101% crit severity, an overall 14.85% DPS increase.
9 points: 15% critrate, 105% crit severity, an overall 15.75% DPS increase.
A .9% difference in overall DPS might not seem like much, but I'd say it is quite significant.

Especially for a DD, it's your role in a group to eke out every last possible bit of DPS, so I can't see myself turning down an always-relevant passive .9% increase.


2. Threat Control on an Escort? Pretty suicidal.
Though I guess the thinking is "I'll end up tanking anyway so i might as well take the damage reduction". Ok.


3. Unmaxed Impulse Thrusters.
Personally, I'd max Impulse on any Ship, any Captain. (and I do)
- When you're flying from one target to another, your DPS is 0; a good DD/Escort should strive to reduce that time as much as possible.
- When you're flying from one target to another, you're not tanking anything; a good tank/Cruiser should strive to reduce that time as much as possible.
- When you're flying from one target to another, you're not controling any crowd; a good Science Vessel should strive to reduce that time as much as possible.
- When you're flying from one NPC to another, you're not healing/buffing anything; a good healer/buffer should strive to reduce that time as much as possible.


4. Driver Coils?
I guess it's for the FI bonuses, but really, FIing into a fight is a bad idea, regardless of Driver Coils or not; just slightly less so.
Instead of making FI slightly less punishing, one should strive to avoid using it as much as possible in combat situations and instead rely on Evasive, APO, manually switching to full Engines (if you have good EPS) and Deuterium.


5. Warp Core Potential:
6 Ranks into Potential means you're getting ~4 Power from it; so you're either at 124/95 and therefore not firing at full strength or 129/95 Weapons, thereby wasting the 6 Ranks you used.
Warp Core Efficiency is debatable, since it doesn't matter if the Powers you have at a low level are a round number or not, but Potential is nice to max since a nice round +5 (actually +4.95) is always useable.


6. Aux Power.
You're right, Aux is useful. It has a noticeable effect on Heals.
But your 6 Ranks into Aux Power (18k Skill Points) give you +8.4 Aux and could've been spent:
- Maxing Efficiency and Potential (10.5k Skill Points) for +2.25 Aux&Engines, +1.5 Shields, +.75 Weapons (see above for the relevance).
- Maxing Shield Emitters and Hull Repair (6k Skill Points) for +7.6% to all Heals, more than what 6 additional Aux Power gives (IIRC).
Result: better Heals, better Speed and Turn rate, better Shield resist and regen, better damage, 1.5k Skill Points left over.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8
# 17
08-12-2012, 06:13 PM
Eh, ignore this.

Last edited by crazy01010; 08-12-2012 at 06:15 PM. Reason: Hit the wrong button
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 152
# 18
08-12-2012, 06:56 PM
quiscustodiet; I fully acknowledge that the build I provided is not completely min-maxed, but my intent was not to provide such a build. Rather, I aimed to provide something well-rounded for STFs and general PvE, which makes slight sacrifices by losing that .9% DPS in exchange for substantial resistance to drain effects, or a few ranks in subsystem repair, which lowers the duration of Assimilate Ship or Boarding Party. (I have tested that last skill, and it does make a difference. Also reduces phaser proc duration.)

As to having points in threat control; the damage reduction is nice, and if I get focus-fired more than I can handle, I just swap power levels a bit or ask nicely to have Extend Shields cast on me; my fleetmates generally oblige. The driver coils are there because I expect most players to die once or twice in STFs, and driver coils let you get back into the fight faster, since you don't have to wait as long for power levels to go back up.

As to the Power ranks; I personally don't put any ranks into Aux Power: I simply have a hotkey to swap to 100 aux and run an EPS flow regulator so I can switch power settings mid-combat easily. Most players can't be bothered to do that, so I try and make the build with that in mind, and 8.4 aux power will help more than the +5% to all heals (not 7.6%, compare 2690 to 2555 for aux2sif1) since it also boosts other science powers such as repulsors or feedback pulse that you might run; I tried to make that build very general. Checking the spreadsheet, you get +1 power to all systems for maxing potential; not worthwhile.

It's all a complex game of tradeoffs; you're describing a much more specialized build than what I provided. I actually make very similar choices to what you've described for my own ship, although I put 6 ranks in threat control, not 3, and skimp on the hull repair points because most of the time I run no self hull-heals, relying entirely on my teammates for that. I feel all warm and fuzzy with two copies of Extends on me, and know that I don't even need to ask for hull heals as a rule, letting me put those skill points into DPS-boosting skills.
12th Fleet | Sad Pandas | Starfleet M.A.C.O.
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