Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 175
# 41
08-12-2012, 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by uxvorastrix View Post
I could be perfectly happy with removing all cloaks from Federation ships.

In the series (plural) there were only two mentions of federation (combat) vessels cloaking. One was research into a phasing cloak that violated treaty, and the other was when the Romulans gave the Federation ONE cloaking device for use on the Defiant.

The Defiant CLASS should not get a cloaking device, just the USS Defiant had one.
I wouldn't go that far.

I wouldn't have a problem with removing fed cloaks from PvP, STFs, and those type of engagements.

I do however love the cloak for storyline missions, and want to keep in for single player or shared mission engagements, when I am helping fleet mates level up, or just plain having pure fun.

I have a KDF with a battle cruiser for when I want to do end game activities with a cloak.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 463
# 42
08-12-2012, 12:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shookyang View Post
I fly a Tactical Escort Retrofit, and I, for the sake of balance, think the BOFF layout and cloak are fine.

I have no use for the 3rd Tactical Ensign skill and I do use cloak.

I've come to accept the Tactical Escort Retrofit's weaknesses and adapt to them.

The ships need to have some sort of disadvantage, otherwise everyone would have the same ship.
Same here. I also fly a Hegh'Ta Hvy BOP on KDF side. I constantly see complaints about the Defiant. I currently have a Defiant Retrofit, run the Aegis set and run dual cannon/turrets exclusively. Yeah, it's a bit squishy but all escorts are... they're small, fast attack craft. Yet just last night I ran Fleet Mark events and a Cure Space and never went *POP* even once. Came close a few times. I don't have Eng Team (no hull heals at all really as I run hazard emitters and polarize hull) and on a couple of occasions I had to duck and run... hit evasive and run outside of gun range then do a lazy circle to give my hull time to beef back up a bit.

I also use the cloak all the time. It's great for slipping up behind a target, slow, then drop shields and hit rapid fire and blast 'em. On a good run, even against a heavy cruiser, I can take down their aft shields before they can start to maneuver or I have to power up and peel away. It's all in the play style. The Defiant is a fast attack gunboat. If you stay (most of the time) at full impulse and learn to yank and bank you actually are harder to hit. I've tested this myself and flying flat out and dodging and ducking I take fewer hits in the Defiant than in, say, my excelsior cruiser.

The biggest trick is to learn to think, not like a ship's captain but, rather, like a fighter pilot.
ZOE: "Sir! You paid money for this?... on purpose??"

KIRK: "Excuse me... what does God need with a starship?"
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 625
# 43
08-12-2012, 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordcorrino View Post
All military ships should have a cloak. The only reason Fed ships don't have a cloak is because Roddenberry saw too many cowboy shows as a kid and decided that "bushwacking" wasn't something the good guys did. In reality, any sane military or paramilitary organization like Starfleet would have cloaking technology. It's simply too large of a strategic advantage to give to the other side. Anyone suggesting anything as stupid as the Treaty of Algeron would be shoved out of an airlock.
The Federation in STO already has a "cloak", it called Mask Energy Signature. The KDF lies in wait will cloaked and ambushes its enemies. While the Federation goes all silent running and avoids the enemy (Mask provides a defensive bonus while the Cloak gives an offensive one). Each skill seems to match the faction's biases.


Since Starfleet has many more ship classes than the Klingons and Romulans (because Starfleet has many top tier designs for "operations other than war") it could be assumed that for cloaks to function at optimal efficiency they have to be designed for each ship. For example the Defiant leaked energy while using its Romulan cloak because it's power systems were so powerful, the Defiant's Romulan equivalent would not be designed with such excess power or would be designed to insulate it since using cloaking would be part of the design from day one.

Also Starfleet answers to the Federation Council which makes policy and signs treaties. Starfleet has to use the weapons they allow. Since the Tac Escort Retrofit (really four designs), and the Dreadnought (two designs) do have cloaks its possible that Starfleet was allowed to design only those ships with cloaking in mind and either due to political or budgetary constraits while other Federation ships were not designed to incorporate them, meanwhile somewhere at Utopia Planitia there is a warehouse full of cloaking devices behind a locked door ('in case of emergency break glass' so to speak) to be issued to the Tac Escorts and Dreadnoughts in case of war.
My Romulan Liberated Borg character made it to Level 30 and beat the (old) Defense of New Romulus with the skill point bug.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,268
# 44
08-12-2012, 06:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dknight0001 View Post

The Dreadnought can also cloak.

And finally, don't ever bring canon into an argument about Federation cloaking devices, because the Federation having cloaking devices is breaking canon.

The Defiant had an amendment in the Treaty of Algernon to allow it (and it alone) to have a cloaking device which was originally supervised by the Romulans. Despite the Damage done to the Romulan Star Empire. The current President of the Federation resigned the Treaty of Algernon, with both the Romulans and Klingons stating that the Federations dedication to peace would not see them research, implement or utilise cloaking technology in any form.
You mention the GAL-X and then spout off about the feds not having cloaking tech?


All good things.



Canon evidence that the Federation developed AND implemented Cloaking technology DESPITE the Treaty of Algeron.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 960
# 45
08-12-2012, 06:58 PM
Quote:
Anyone suggesting anything as stupid as the Treaty of Algeron would be shoved out of an airlock.
To thee I ask "Why?" Why shouldn't the Federation honor treaties it signed? Storylines have been made out of the "darker side" of Starfleet, but I think it's a fair assumption to make that the Feds keep their word, even given the awful state of the galaxy in STO. If you want a dishonorable, backstabbing state, call for a Romulan faction. AND they have all the cloaks you can shake a jumja stick at.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 426
# 46
08-12-2012, 07:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by foundrelic View Post
You mention the GAL-X and then spout off about the feds not having cloaking tech?


All good things.



Canon evidence that the Federation developed AND implemented Cloaking technology DESPITE the Treaty of Algeron.
That was a possible future, not a guaranteed one. "All Good Things" had three possible futures, but they never said which one - if any - was the "right" one.

Therefore it cannot be entered as canon evidence as we do not know which - if any - of the possible futures the Federation actually followed.
Demons run when a good man goes to war.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 161
# 47
08-12-2012, 08:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlamstrike View Post
The Federation in STO already has a "cloak", it called Mask Energy Signature. The KDF lies in wait will cloaked and ambushes its enemies. While the Federation goes all silent running and avoids the enemy (Mask provides a defensive bonus while the Cloak gives an offensive one). Each skill seems to match the faction's biases.


Since Starfleet has many more ship classes than the Klingons and Romulans (because Starfleet has many top tier designs for "operations other than war") it could be assumed that for cloaks to function at optimal efficiency they have to be designed for each ship. For example the Defiant leaked energy while using its Romulan cloak because it's power systems were so powerful, the Defiant's Romulan equivalent would not be designed with such excess power or would be designed to insulate it since using cloaking would be part of the design from day one.

Also Starfleet answers to the Federation Council which makes policy and signs treaties. Starfleet has to use the weapons they allow. Since the Tac Escort Retrofit (really four designs), and the Dreadnought (two designs) do have cloaks its possible that Starfleet was allowed to design only those ships with cloaking in mind and either due to political or budgetary constraits while other Federation ships were not designed to incorporate them, meanwhile somewhere at Utopia Planitia there is a warehouse full of cloaking devices behind a locked door ('in case of emergency break glass' so to speak) to be issued to the Tac Escorts and Dreadnoughts in case of war.
No. Cryptic should have used the alternative universe thing to get rid of an element that makes no sense and is solely based on the biases of the now-dead founder of Star Trek. No cloaks for federation ships makes no sense and presents unnecessary balancing problems. Just get rid of it. Roddenberry had a lot of good ideas, but a couple of really bad ones like the no cloak thing and Wesley Crusher.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 161
# 48
08-12-2012, 08:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by unangbangkay View Post
To thee I ask "Why?" Why shouldn't the Federation honor treaties it signed? Storylines have been made out of the "darker side" of Starfleet, but I think it's a fair assumption to make that the Feds keep their word, even given the awful state of the galaxy in STO. If you want a dishonorable, backstabbing state, call for a Romulan faction. AND they have all the cloaks you can shake a jumja stick at.
Because no sane major power gives up that kind of tactical advantage and remains unconquered without some major plot devices. It would be like the United States voluntarily agreeing not to build submarines while the Russians were allowed to build them by the hundreds during the Cold War. Completely insane.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 960
# 49
08-12-2012, 10:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordcorrino View Post
Because no sane major power gives up that kind of tactical advantage and remains unconquered without some major plot devices. It would be like the United States voluntarily agreeing not to build submarines while the Russians were allowed to build them by the hundreds during the Cold War. Completely insane.
Edit: Memory Alpha says the treaty is invalid as of STO. So yes, advocate for all the cloaks you want. The Federation is an insane state that must be overthrown because its two cloaked ships ARE NOT ENOUGH. We are all doomed to be enslaved by the invisible overlords.

*Original message below*

The Federation is not the US - which, I'd point out, is also proposing and ratifying various multilateral nuclear arms reduction treaties that it ostensibly will honor. Insanely, it is reducing its tactical nuclear advantage, though the treaty also ensures that other powers will be doing similarly.

The Federation also happens to be founded on an ideal (naive though it may be), one that it has stuck to more often than not. You may like your states hypocritical and grossly self-interested, but hey, not everyone is obligated to conform to your cynical, frankly awful worldview.

Plus, it's a peace treaty, one ostensibly intended to preserve peace. Perhaps the tactical advantage of cloaking that you so desperately desire isn't worth all the war it could lead to, existing violations aside. Whether it still applies in the future dystopia that you think STO is is a matter for debate, but so long as the Federation is a nation that keeps its word, you're not getting that cloak.

Last edited by unangbangkay; 08-12-2012 at 10:21 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 161
# 50
08-13-2012, 12:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by unangbangkay View Post
Edit: Memory Alpha says the treaty is invalid as of STO. So yes, advocate for all the cloaks you want. The Federation is an insane state that must be overthrown because its two cloaked ships ARE NOT ENOUGH. We are all doomed to be enslaved by the invisible overlords.

*Original message below*

The Federation is not the US - which, I'd point out, is also proposing and ratifying various multilateral nuclear arms reduction treaties that it ostensibly will honor. Insanely, it is reducing its tactical nuclear advantage, though the treaty also ensures that other powers will be doing similarly.

The Federation also happens to be founded on an ideal (naive though it may be), one that it has stuck to more often than not. You may like your states hypocritical and grossly self-interested, but hey, not everyone is obligated to conform to your cynical, frankly awful worldview.

Plus, it's a peace treaty, one ostensibly intended to preserve peace. Perhaps the tactical advantage of cloaking that you so desperately desire isn't worth all the war it could lead to, existing violations aside. Whether it still applies in the future dystopia that you think STO is is a matter for debate, but so long as the Federation is a nation that keeps its word, you're not getting that cloak.
START and SALT are the polar opposite of the make-believe Treaty of Algeron. In real world treaties both sides agree to give up something and keep an eye on one another to make sure it happens. As one Cold War president says "trust, but verify." The only reason you sign a treaty like Algeron is because you completely lose a war and have terms dictated to you.

But of course the Treaty of Algeron isn't there to make sense, it is a blatant plot device because Roddenberry didn't think sneaking around was heroic. In game terms, I think this little fiction should be done away with. Either you give one side the advantage with the cloak, or you try to balance a cloak against other abilities which is very hard to do. I think the best solution is to either give everyone a cloak, or make the cloak a console available to everyone. Then re-balance ships like BOP to make them a bit more lethal. Win-win.
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