Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,302
# 11
08-17-2012, 01:50 PM
I believe it has to start at PvP, and work down to PvE. The AI is so stupid it has to use buffed systems and weapons, and when those items are taken to PvP the balance goes out the window.

Another thing- weapon mounts need to be an assigned type (i.e. energy, torpedo, etc) and kept non-interchanagable. NO race would build a torpedo only ship, or a beam only ship so why should the players be allowed. This 1:1 weapon interchanagability thows balancing ability off. Anyone ever see a torpedo only AI ship ? Not me.
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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,732
# 12
08-17-2012, 01:57 PM
You can't have "Balanced" PvP unless everyone is flying a Science ship with a Science Captain.

Science ships are basically Cruiser/ Escorts that give you 4 free BOff skills just for owning the ship. They automatically receive the 4 Beam Target Subsystem skills.

For this to be balanced all cruisers would get all of the Emergency Power to Subsystem skills and all Escorts would get all of the Attack Pattern skills.

Don't even get me started on the magic that lets a Science Captain summon a Gravity Well or Rift several times per session just because it appeared in 1 episode of 1 series.
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Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 863
# 13
08-17-2012, 02:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cusashorn View Post
I don't PVP. I hate doing it and just enjoy playing against the NPCs in this game.

But something has me curious. I don't know if that's actually the case, but I tend to notice here on the forums that whenever anyone is discussing gameplay balance whenever a skill gets nerfed or a new ship is introduced, I get the feeling that they're only specifically talking about how those changes stack up to other skills and other ships in PVP only.


Am I kind of in the ballpark here? I dont' really see why there would be any need to discuss how well the Regeant class Assault Cruiser holds up to other vessels in the game if that wasn't the case, because all ships are suppose to have a defining trait, no matter how offset the gameplay might be because of it.
I think to some extent yeah, I'm not a PVPer but I do acknowledge that some of Cryptic's NPC critters cheat. Literally, when you look at their powers they might be able to throw out let's say...GW3, and PSW3 - two commander science powers. It's impossible to balance against that sort of thing really.

Now PVP's skewed by player ability, but its fair to say if you're looking at a similar player you get a better idea.
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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 271
# 14
08-17-2012, 02:26 PM
What you siad was right and it is right what you siad
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,607
# 15
08-17-2012, 04:53 PM
I'd go for more than a two value system. I'd go for a two ship system.

That way people start off in standard PvE ships but earn these PvP ships, which are innately better than even C-Store or Fleet ships for PvP because they're targeted at PvP stats. That reintroduces possibility of eSport.

Now, beyond that, to keep dilithium/fleet demand high and avoid an extra currency...

I'd have dilithium or fleet credits be used to buy PvP ships.

However, access to the PvP ship store would be tiered based on commendation category (reputation) progress.

Everyone's PvP rep is reset quarterly and new weapons and ships and cool stuff would also be added quarterly to the PvP ship store.

You get, say, 500 PvP CXP per match for a win, 50 for a lose. And players who have higher tiers (Ie. say I'm Tier 3 in PvP) award a bonus bounty of CXP every time you kill them. The better you are, the bigger the target on you.

If you max out the commendation category at 100k PvP CXP, you get to reap rewards like dilithium turn-ins or fleet marks or maybe even Lobi hand-ins or Fleet Base extras until the seasonal reset.

Then everybody starts at 0 PvP XP and the rivalry starts up again. The old gear is discounted. New gear is introduced. There's a perk for hitting the top tier each PvP season.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 103
# 16
08-17-2012, 05:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
Golden rule

YOUR SET UP IS YOUR BUSINESS

Silver Rule

PVP is less than 5% of the game

Bronze Rule

A ship speced perfectly for PVP will SUCK in some missions
That Bronze rule applies to most MMOs but not to STO. a PvP specwill wreck PvE content in this game.
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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 346
# 17
08-17-2012, 05:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by azurianstar View Post
When it comes to PvP and balance, for years I've advocated that Cryptic adopt a 2-value system (one for PvP and one for PvE), just like Everquest had for it's PvP. That way you can adjust PvE, but not affect PvP, and vice versa. And I honestly would like them to reconsider this, because as it is now, it's going to be a major difficult task in finding that sweet spot where it's okay for both sides.
As have I. It's only way things can be balanced in both PvE and PvP.


As for Ship balance: no, PvP isn't my only yardstick.
If X Ship > Y Ship in every non-trivial way for instance, it's unbalanced and it'll cause issues in PvE and PvP alike.

Just because in PvE Ships don't face off with each other doesn't mean balance is any less relevant than in PvP.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 951
# 18
08-17-2012, 05:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lpthomasmarik View Post
That Bronze rule applies to most MMOs but not to STO. a PvP specwill wreck PvE content in this game.
I'd say it's somewhere in between sucking and wrecking. A PvP build will be sufficient for PvE, but it definitely is not ideal. I've recently changed from a PvE setup to a PvP setup and had to change many things, including weapons, Boff abilities, and even active space Doffs.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,473
# 19
08-17-2012, 05:57 PM
Its a bit of a ludic fallacy. PVP can not be balanced. By its nature there are infinite unknowns that can not be reduced to pure statistical analysis in determining the probability of an event taking place - and thus assuring it can occur in a balanced way all the time. Trying to balance PVE through PVP is just as bizarre.
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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 471
# 20
08-17-2012, 06:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skurf View Post
I'd say it's somewhere in between sucking and wrecking. A PvP build will be sufficient for PvE, but it definitely is not ideal. I've recently changed from a PvE setup to a PvP setup and had to change many things, including weapons, Boff abilities, and even active space Doffs.
Dunno I main a pure PvP built tac/Garumba tourney, (as in no +1 consoles at all, though I do run a Red Matter Capasitor), set up right now right now and I've been face melting PvE. Considering how the game is built around DPS and heals it is not a surprise to me that a tac/escort has a high degree of mission flexibility.

Earlier today I PuGged a Starbase Defense. Two warped out right at the beginning one was an AKF hero that left a Bortasqu and myself. We were stubborn and managed to get to wave four before we lost the base. That Bortasqu was good. Kept the base healed at the expense of their self more than once.

Still I was thinking about setting up a slightly more PvE build with a swappable BO set up for one more CSV and no CRF...

Edited to get a touch more on topic:

I made a post in another thread that pointed out one of the reasons that under the current mechanics PvP is the best tool to judge balance by. It was in a thread about how the new Metreon Gas dispenser is underwhelming.

The reality is that to give a degree of challenge to PvE the NPC's hit points and damage has to be super charged as the AI that controls them does not chose or time buffs and heals all that well. So you get NPCs with ludicrous hit point values and very high damage output values.

In the case of the metreon gas trick the new console fails to look all that impressive in PvE because the NPC hull goes down just a tiny fraction. Yet when you see a Regent with full hull and a down shield facing drop to 30% hull due to that console when it gets stuck in it's own metreon fart it is very effective against ships like BoPs, Science vessels, and even escorts that are piloted by players. Very effective as in coup de gr?ce effective.
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Last edited by piwright42; 08-17-2012 at 06:44 PM.
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