Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 11
08-14-2012, 04:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
The Sci Ody will out-DPS the Tac quite fast (it surpasses the extra Tac console at something like 3 or 4 stacks)... it's hard to say what's going on without seeing the parser logs. Can you export and post them?
Rats... Ulti got in before me

It's probably worth noting here though that I flew a Tac Ody for ages before I sat down and actually parsed the difference. It's hard to appreciate just how strong Sensor Analysis is whenever you're just comparing the buff values - you have to realise that the damage buff from Sensor Analysis acts upon your TOTAL damage (after skillpoint investment, consoles, buffs, etc) wheras the damage buff from another Tactical Console only acts upon your BASE damage.

But yeah.... leaving aside the Weapons Power issue (Tac Ody doesn't need to run EPTW to hit 125) basically if you're killing things or changing targets in less than 30 seconds, go for the Tac Ody. If not, go for the Sci.

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]

Last edited by maelwy5; 08-14-2012 at 04:36 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,063
# 12
08-14-2012, 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
The Sci Ody will out-DPS the Tac quite fast (it surpasses the extra Tac console at something like 3 or 4 stacks)... it's hard to say what's going on without seeing the parser logs. Can you export and post them?
Can you explain a bit about this process? I generally just stick it in Advanced Combat Tracker with the STO plug-in (for some reason some of the other log parsers stopped working on my system).

Do I need to run it through some program? Also, the logs get really, really big, really, really fast. Is there a preferred place/way to post them?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 13
08-14-2012, 10:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by red01999 View Post
Can you explain a bit about this process? I generally just stick it in Advanced Combat Tracker with the STO plug-in (for some reason some of the other log parsers stopped working on my system)

Do I need to run it through some program? Also, the logs get really, really big, really, really fast. Is there a preferred place/way to post them?

I think the base log text files themselves should be sufficient.

I would probably do the following:

1) Create a google account specifically for your STO needs (always good to keep your personal/business/school accounts private).

2) Upload the document to google drive.

3) Come back and post a link to the uploaded document here.


Do you just have one massive log? Or did you separate and name them with something like "Tac Ody" "Sci Ody"?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,063
# 14
08-14-2012, 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
I think the base log text files themselves should be sufficient.

I would probably do the following:

1) Create a google account specifically for your STO needs (always good to keep your personal/business/school accounts private).

2) Upload the document to google drive.

3) Come back and post a link to the uploaded document here.


Do you just have one massive log? Or did you separate and name them with something like "Tac Ody" "Sci Ody"?
I'm going to do a few runs with each, so I'll be labeling them specifically for that. My current runs I have a bunch of notes in a text file, so they're kind of mashed together and not so great for this.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,063
# 15 Update!
08-17-2012, 11:49 AM
Hi folks.

I hope someone is still watching this thread, because I've been gathering a fairly beefy amount of data and hope to post it soon. Something like ten or eleven runs altogether.

From a cursory analysis it seems that the tactical cruiser does edge out the science cruiser. And for those who may have pointed out the power bonus on the tactical ship, it doesn't really matter all that much - I cycle EPtW1, and adjust the sliders to make sure it hits or nearly hits 125 weapons power when running the cycle, no matter what the ship is (I usually do this even for my non-Odysseys once I can spec into Starship Weapons Performance).

Anyway, just wanted to let people who may still be watching this thread (and I hope a few are) that I didn't vanish into the ether.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 16
08-18-2012, 03:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by red01999 View Post
Hi folks.

I hope someone is still watching this thread, because I've been gathering a fairly beefy amount of data and hope to post it soon. Something like ten or eleven runs altogether.

From a cursory analysis it seems that the tactical cruiser does edge out the science cruiser. And for those who may have pointed out the power bonus on the tactical ship, it doesn't really matter all that much - I cycle EPtW1, and adjust the sliders to make sure it hits or nearly hits 125 weapons power when running the cycle, no matter what the ship is (I usually do this even for my non-Odysseys once I can spec into Starship Weapons Performance).

Anyway, just wanted to let people who may still be watching this thread (and I hope a few are) that I didn't vanish into the ether.

There's a few of us with it still on our radar


On the "Power bonus" bit - it's not so much that both ships can't run EPTW, but that the Tac version doesn't need to in order to hit 125.

E.g. Typical Setup (Tac Ody)
Lt Tac: TT1, FAW2
Lt Sci: HE1, TSS2
Com Engineer: EPTS1, Aux2Damp1 or RSP1 or ES1, EPTS3, Aux2SIF3
LtCom Universal: (Tac) TT1, TS2, APB2
Ensign Universal: (Tac) FAW1


Typical Setup (Sci Ody)
Lt Tac: TT1, FAW2
Lt Sci: HE1, TSS2
Com Engineer: EPTW1, EPTS2, EPTS3, Aux2SIF3
LtCom Universal: (Tac) TT1, TS2, APB2
Ensign Universal: (Eng) EPTW1

So basically the Tac version gains 2 powers over the Sci without losing much performance (in this case, assuming you're "tanking" then probably FAW1 and RSP1... but Aux2Damp can be handy in certain cases).

If you're just taking EPTW anyway then yes, this will be irrelevant. But it lets you do some fun stuff... one of my favourite alternative combos for the Tac was basically the above, with a Universal Tac Ensign running TT1, and a Universal LtCom Sci running PH1, TBR1 and GW1. The Sci can technically pull it off, but needs to give up slots for a few Conn Officer DOFFs or else lose full Tac Team coverage (not a wise idea!) and won't have the capability to use Aux2Damp alongside that combo in order to better position itself for TBR.

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]

Last edited by maelwy5; 08-18-2012 at 03:44 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 17
08-18-2012, 06:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by red01999 View Post
Hi folks.

I hope someone is still watching this thread, because I've been gathering a fairly beefy amount of data and hope to post it soon. Something like ten or eleven runs altogether.

From a cursory analysis it seems that the tactical cruiser does edge out the science cruiser. And for those who may have pointed out the power bonus on the tactical ship, it doesn't really matter all that much - I cycle EPtW1, and adjust the sliders to make sure it hits or nearly hits 125 weapons power when running the cycle, no matter what the ship is (I usually do this even for my non-Odysseys once I can spec into Starship Weapons Performance).

Anyway, just wanted to let people who may still be watching this thread (and I hope a few are) that I didn't vanish into the ether.
..........
hint: that data will be worthless.
Why?
Because all you've generated is data on how to deal a lot less damage than possible.
You don't use EPtW to get to 125 weapon power, you use it to buffer power drain BEYOND 125.

If your weapon power with EPtW up is 125 and you're using six beams, you'd be firing at a sustained rate at 75 (slightly more, but lets just go with this) power.
If your weapon power is 125 to start with and you use EPtW2 (~30 bonus weapon power), then you'd be firing at a sustained rate at 105 (slightly more, same as above) power.
Or: You're losing nearly 30% dps.
Means: You'll deal too little damage to actually tank vs. any decently build Escort -> welcome to useless-land.
More than 35% loss for an eight-beam setup, btw, and basically no gain over the six-beam version, while at max base power you'd see an increase.

You're doing it WRONG!

Quote:
Originally Posted by maelwy5 View Post
<snip>
Build based on flawed idea is ... flawed.

People like the two of you are the reason we have those "Cruisers are useless" threads. You HAVE TO max out your dps, both to contribute towards group-dps AND to be able to generate enough threat to actually tank.
Gimp your damage, and all you do is be insignificant.

Oh, and if I wanted a tanky utility ship, I'd run with an actual science ship, not with a slow-ass Ody. RSV and DSSV outperform it in that role, despite the lack of two weapon slots, as they allow for point-blank-broadside-circling at max defense bonus, and actually allow you to turn when needed to make use of those frontal-arc science powers.

The Ody is a BRICK! Used right, she can be a quite powerful and tanky brick, but ... from what I've seen so far in this game, the Ody seems to be the biggest and fattest noob-magnet there is.
(Disclaimer: 'not saying that ALL Ody captains are noobs, I'm sure there are a few good ones, even if good ones with a bad taste for ships - but MOST Odys I've seen ended up somewhere between use-impaired and totally useless.)
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 18
08-18-2012, 08:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
Oh, and if I wanted a tanky utility ship, I'd run with an actual science ship, not with a slow-ass Ody. RSV and DSSV outperform it in that role, despite the lack of two weapon slots, as they allow for point-blank-broadside-circling at max defense bonus, and actually allow you to turn when needed to make use of those frontal-arc science powers.
You don't need "max" defense bonus to tank anything in this game's endgame PvE.

If you do, then I think it's time for you to re-evaluate your Cruiser set up - because to be honest there must be something wrong with it.

A well built Ody can literally sit right on top of NPCs and tank at point blank range. Most other cruisers can do this as well.


The builds that maelwy5 posted are not "tanky utility" ships - please look again. They stuff more Tac/Offense powers into an Ody than any other Fed Cruiser can realistically achieve.

*I say realistically, because the AC-R can use its Uni Lt for more Tac slots - it's not going to be easy to make that option work with no HE or TSS in your build however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
I'm sure there are a few good ones, even if good ones with a bad taste for ships
I think you're just raging to rage against what you see as a "noob" ship, when the Ody has more advantages than disadvantages in comparison to any other fed cruiser.

Tac heavy, Eng heavy or Sci heavy - the user can take their pick - it sets the standard for Fleet ships with 10 consoles and a better shield mod than any other Cstore Cruiser as well as more hull.

The only disadvantage it actually has is a base turn rate of 6 - which you can choose to mitigate with Saucer Separation or just ignore completely because in PvE a base turn rate of 6 doesn't affect you very much.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 19
08-18-2012, 08:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
You don't need "max" defense bonus to tank anything in this game's endgame PvE.

If you do, then I think it's time for you to re-evaluate your Cruiser set up - because to be honest there must be something wrong with it.

A well built Ody can literally sit right on top of NPCs and tank at point blank range. Most other cruisers can do this as well.
Yup, you most certainly can sit on top of a target and point-blank-nuke it. Not arguing that you can't.
I'm arguing that you're better off not doing it, and instead use defense to prevent incoming damage, which allows you to exchange some of heals for offensive abilities.
That way you tank just as well, but deal a ****load more damage and threat.
It that's not important to you, then .... maybe it's you who shoud re-evaluate your whole concept of cruisers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
The builds that maelwy5 posted are not "tanky utility" ships - please look again. They stuff more Tac/Offense powers into an Ody than any other Fed Cruiser can realistically achieve.

*I say realistically, because the AC-R can use its Uni Lt for more Tac slots - it's not going to be easy to make that option work with no HE or TSS in your build however.


I think you're just raging to rage against what you see as a "noob" ship, when the Ody has more advantages than disadvantages in comparison to any other fed cruiser.

Tac heavy, Eng heavy or Sci heavy - the user can take their pick - it sets the standard for Fleet ships with 10 consoles and a better shield mod than any other Cstore Cruiser as well as more hull.

The only disadvantage it actually has is a base turn rate of 6 - which you can choose to mitigate with Saucer Separation or just ignore completely because in PvE a base turn rate of 6 doesn't affect you very much.
The reason I'm "raging" against the Ody is that I've seen far too many Odys that can't beat 2k dps on any encounter. Lots that won't even beat 1.5k. No matter how much points you invested in threat control, that's not even enough to hold aggro against a Cmdr-level ship that's build decently.
'Been there, stole aggro on enough of them, 'had to tank in raptors/destroyers/escorts because of it.
And I'm laughing every time my Fed Eng in her MAC, still using RA green Mk X equipment, ends up stealing aggro and tanking perfectly fine while all those over-priced bricks sit there and deal less damage than a shuttle.

No, I'm actually not "raging" against the Ody, I've seen a few (very few) good pilots, though all of them in PvP and not a single one in PvE. I'm "raging" against people(!) who think that spending 50$ on a ship is an I-WIN-Button, then end up with builds making them useless.
Not against the ship.
As stated above already, but I guess you missed that.

Edit:
Just as you missed that part of maelwy5's post, that was what my "tanky utility" comment was aimed at ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by maelwy5 View Post
If you're just taking EPTW anyway then yes, this will be irrelevant. But it lets you do some fun stuff... one of my favourite alternative combos for the Tac was basically the above, with a Universal Tac Ensign running TT1, and a Universal LtCom Sci running PH1, TBR1 and GW1. The Sci can technically pull it off, but needs to give up slots for a few Conn Officer DOFFs or else lose full Tac Team coverage (not a wise idea!) and won't have the capability to use Aux2Damp alongside that combo in order to better position itself for TBR.

Last edited by flekh; 08-18-2012 at 08:31 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 585
# 20
08-18-2012, 11:39 AM
That's because of the lack of a Tactical console and the lack of +10 Weapons.
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