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# 21
08-20-2012, 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Agreed.

I think the ability to use APD to draw threat onto yourself would be sufficient (backed up with at least decent damage dealing & Threat Control Skill)




I'm here because I started the thread...

Seriously though, I'm here because I think there is a need for there to be at least 1 method of spike threat generation through boff skills.
And I'm here b/c my tank (even at 6 tc) can't draw fire from borg wven with bfaw and e2s3 active, and I want to be able to do something to make them angry si I can do my job and other people can do theirs
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# 22
08-20-2012, 07:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dood98998 View Post
And I'm here b/c my tank (even at 6 tc) can't draw fire from borg wven with bfaw and e2s3 active, and I want to be able to do something to make them angry si I can do my job and other people can do theirs
Then we're in agreement.

My Tac/Cruiser has no issues with only 6 ranks of threat, but even then I'd take APD for the synergy with teammate's APB (my friends always pack APB).

My Eng/Cruiser sometimes struggles with what you describe, even with 9 ranks of threat. I've been pushed to the least survivable, most offense focused layout for an ody I can come up with just to remedy it.

So yes, I would very much prefer to have at least 1 BOFF skill with threat generation, and I think APD is an excellent candidate.

I just don't feel it's wise to allow one player to increase the threat of another player.

I'd much rather see 1 player able to increase their threat, with another player having something of a placate/threat reducing power to draw on.
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# 23
08-20-2012, 10:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Then we're in agreement.

My Tac/Cruiser has no issues with only 6 ranks of threat, but even then I'd take APD for the synergy with teammate's APB (my friends always pack APB).

My Eng/Cruiser sometimes struggles with what you describe, even with 9 ranks of threat. I've been pushed to the least survivable, most offense focused layout for an ody I can come up with just to remedy it.

So yes, I would very much prefer to have at least 1 BOFF skill with threat generation, and I think APD is an excellent candidate.

I just don't feel it's wise to allow one player to increase the threat of another player.

I'd much rather see 1 player able to increase their threat, with another player having something of a placate/threat reducing power to draw on.
And this is where our views differ. I have friends in escorts who would be more than willing to cast apb on me to increase threat, so that the admonitor can draw fire. If the threat generated is porportional tto points in tc, then the player receiving it would only have threat generated if they have tc, and if you hhave tc and can't handle the threat, you seriously need a respec.
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# 24
08-20-2012, 11:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dood98998 View Post
and if you hhave tc and can't handle the threat, you seriously need a respec.
If you would be unable to hold aggro with 9 ranks in threat control and personally using APD with +500% threat generation (as with Draw Fire) - I would think that it's you who needs a respec and a full rethinking of your BOFFs.

Seriously if you think you need a team of escorts all tossing APD onto you to hold threat, you need a rethink of your build or tactics.


I'm not worried about the incoming damage for me - since I already hold threat on everything around me with a Tac in Cruiser with no issues.

I'm worried about the general playerbase and how they use powers, what they are capable of and the environment they tend to play in (PUG queue) - and from that perspective, tossing threat onto someone else, does not make a whole lot of sense.

I'm concerned with making a proposal that hopefully some dev might see and think makes sense.

Last edited by ussultimatum; 08-20-2012 at 11:13 PM.
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# 25
08-21-2012, 02:17 AM
That's why I think it should be the reverse effect. Casting APD on others should buff defence and reduce their threat. If using on self it increases threat along with all the usual stuff.

That way you can't grief anyone with it and we can still control threat to a degree.

Now that pretty much would make it a tanker/cruiser specific skill but what escorts run with APD anyway?
Most builds I see posted only mention APB and APO.

If this does happen though, decreasing APD1 down to an ensign level skill to fit in cruisers tac slots would be nice.
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# 26
08-21-2012, 12:11 PM
Maybe I'm missing something simple here, but why would I want to use this as an escort pilot?

The only ships with commander tac slots and thus capable of using APDelta3, why would they want to increase their own threat level? At the moment Eng/Cruisers with 9 points in Threat can easily hold aggro as long as there is no Tac with Threat. Tacs putting points in threat already are doing this on their own responsiblity and often enough (when in escorts) they can't take the heat and I'm sorry to say this, but deserve to die.

So the question remains, why do escorts need an ability that basically renders the cruisers ability to generate threat useless? I know I can take APDelta1 and 2 for cruisers, but still the highest level would remain exclusive for escorts and also would prevent quite some cruisers from generating AoE threat (replacing FaW with APDelta).
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decker999
Join Date: Aug 2010
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 387
# 27
08-21-2012, 06:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
If you would be unable to hold aggro with 9 ranks in threat control and personally using APD with +500% threat generation (as with Draw Fire) - I would think that it's you who needs a respec and a full rethinking of your BOFFs.

Seriously if you think you need a team of escorts all tossing APD onto you to hold threat, you need a rethink of your build or tactics.


I'm not worried about the incoming damage for me - since I already hold threat on everything around me with a Tac in Cruiser with no issues.

I'm worried about the general playerbase and how they use powers, what they are capable of and the environment they tend to play in (PUG queue) - and from that perspective, tossing threat onto someone else, does not make a whole lot of sense.

I'm concerned with making a proposal that hopefully some dev might see and think makes sense.
i cant hold threat b/c im an engi in an oddy. result? pitiful dps. not my fault- im set up as a tank, and thats what i want to be. not another dps machine. i dont want to have to increase damage to draw aggro- i want to be able to gain aggro w/out sacing my defensive abilities for damage stuff
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# 28
08-21-2012, 09:48 PM
Lots of good discussion, hope the devs are reading all this


Quote:
Originally Posted by decker03 View Post
Maybe I'm missing something simple here, but why would I want to use this as an escort pilot?
Are you saying you run it currently? I haven't seen anyone mention APD as a skill they use on escort builds I've seen. (happy to be proven wrong though)
As far as I know it's a dud ability already as no escorts run it currently (in favor of APB/O) and it requires high tac slots which cruisers don't have but would and could make the most use out of it. Which is why I suggested APD1 should be moved down to an ensign skill pulling the other levels down as well so APD3 is LTC skill.

The only benefit I can see for escorts is the hull resist buff, but for it to work they need to be taking fire (already have aggro) and for the debuff to work their target also has to be firing on them. So it requires having aggro and taking hits from your target(s) to actually start working to its full potential. Something regular escorts probably don't want to be doing. So why not add threat to make it work better? That's why APB is the best for them offence wise (enemy doesn't need to fire on you), or for a balance APO for damage and resist buffs.

APD to me seems a very cruiser/tanky type ability, where one is dishing out (probably AoE) dmg, attracting aggro and taking a pounding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by decker03 View Post
Tacs putting points in threat already are doing this on their own responsiblity and often enough (when in escorts) they can't take the heat and I'm sorry to say this, but deserve to die.
Well for tac captains yeah, I'm an engy with 4 in threat, but don't want to respec every time I switch to my escort so have to live with it. Can tank an elite tac cube fairly well in my Fleet Scourge. I get and keep aggro rather well as you can imagine. Last night I tanked an elite cube from 100% down to 10% before I blew up.
No one bothered to heal me so was on my own, but if I had one or two friendly heals thrown on me I could've taken it all the way.

I think I might actually try APD1 on my escort (replacing one of my APB1's). I have threat skilled and am single target only focused (CRF and THY skills only), so more than likely my target is hitting me back and only 1 at a time.
APD can work on an escort but it's for a specific build type that I can see (and currently use). A tanking escort basically with an engineer at the helm.

Adding threat to it further aids that cause (you need to have aggro for it to work anyway so why not add threat?), and helps cruisers so no biggy. Adding a threat debuff when applied to others means cruisers can throw it on escorts when they don't need it themselves for a helping threat debuff and resist buff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by decker03 View Post
So the question remains, why do escorts need an ability that basically renders the cruisers ability to generate threat useless? I know I can take APDelta1 and 2 for cruisers, but still the highest level would remain exclusive for escorts and also would prevent quite some cruisers from generating AoE threat (replacing FaW with APDelta).
I'm no tac captain and only fly escorts occasionally for fun. But let me reverse that question, why do escorts run with it now, compared to say APO?

To me, for a skill that requires aggro to start working for you, adding threat would just mean it works fully more often and reliably.
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# 29
08-21-2012, 10:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by decker03 View Post
Maybe I'm missing something simple here, but why would I want to use this as an escort pilot?
Maybe you wouldn't.

Maybe some would.

APD is available to any ship with at least a Lt Tactical slot.

Someone who has a Sci or Eng in an Escort who rarely generates a ton of threat and does not have threat control might want a power like APD to let them help an ally out of a rough spot.

Whether they are in a Sci ship, Escort, Cruiser or Carrier.


Quote:
Originally Posted by decker03 View Post
The only ships with commander tac slots and thus capable of using APDelta3, why would they want to increase their own threat level?
Honestly, I would like APD to stay as is with the threat generation component being say +500% and standard across all versions.


This would make your concern above a non-issue as a Cruiser would still have access to the highest available threat - just not the highest available Dam Debuff/Resistance Buff.

Outside of some PvP builds why would an Escort really want any version of APD now anyway?

For PvE (the scope of this thread) APB is completely superior and taking APD 3 on an Escort for PvE right now, instead of APB 3, CRF 3 or APO 3 is just a mistake.


That being said, if the devs had the tech to move APD down a notch so it would be Ensign > Lt > Ltc - that would be fine with me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by decker03 View Post
At the moment Eng/Cruisers with 9 points in Threat can easily hold aggro as long as there is no Tac with Threat.
This is just not true unfortunately.

I've even said what you've said, but the fact is there are times you simply can't pull threat due to a number of things: for example the escort got there first and opened up with all their buffs.

Outside of an activatable power, it's incredibly unlikely that an Eng/Cruiser will pull threat once they are already behind in threat generation on any specific enemy.




Also keep in mind nothing stops an escort pilot from taking threat now and there are PvPers who in fact do this for the resist buffs because they can handle the increased threat.

So I don't see APD causing the conflict you are discussing.

Threat is thematically tactical in this game across ground and space, APD having threat generation is both practical as well as thematic. It also has very similar design to Draw Fire without the actual threat component.

Something I'd love to see added.

Last edited by ussultimatum; 08-21-2012 at 10:47 PM.
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# 30
08-21-2012, 10:51 PM
Edited the OP to add the suggestion to shift APD starting and final tiers down.
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