Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Vo'Quv Ideas
06-09-2011, 10:05 AM
The VoQuv needs a bit of a redesign IMO....

Here are some ideas...

1. Give the Vo'Qov a cruiser weapon load out - 4 slots fore and aft. Take away the sub-system targeting for balance.

2. Return the fighter and BoP cap to pre-nerf levels, and remove the reliance on Aux for the launch rate. I know that this was done so that the hangers could be interdicted...but the truth is that I have not seen much Aux targeting in pvp...all this does is to force a carrier pilot to reduce shields and weapons power...which is actually a double nerf.

3. keep hull and shields the same...

4. We need some fighter and bop management tools...even just a counter to show how many fighters you have active is a step in the right direction.

5. Take another look at fighter and bop damage capabilities...if you increase the cap back to pre-nerf levels...then perhaps they don't need to be buffed...if you don't return the cap back to pre-nerf levels, then please look at boosting their damage output and buffing their survivability.

6. A slight buff to he turn rate would be nice....just a point or two could make a difference.

7. Maybe look at increasing the range at which you can start launching birds...from 15to 20.

8. Officer layout is fine...no change needed.

Just some thoughts. I know that there is some angst when it comes to carriers...but the last round of nerfs went a bit too far....some rebalancing would be appreciated.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
06-09-2011, 10:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTempest
The VoQuv needs a bit of a redesign IMO....

Here are some ideas...
I'm not sure I agree with you on this one. The Vor'quv has been one of the hardest things to keep balanced. One wrong change here or there can cause it to become either Over powered or underpowered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTempest
1. Give the Vo'Qov a cruiser weapon load out - 4 slots fore and aft. Take away the sub-system targeting for balance.
This change would be overpowering to the Vor'quv. The Hanger bays are what give it the 3 fore 3 aft weapon slots, not the subsystem targeting. The Subsystem Targeting was given because back then it was also considered a science ship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTempest
2. Return the fighter and BoP cap to pre-nerf levels, and remove the reliance on Aux for the launch rate. I know that this was done so that the hangers could be interdicted...but the truth is that I have not seen much Aux targeting in pvp...all this does is to force a carrier pilot to reduce shields and weapons power...which is actually a double nerf.
In order to return the BoP and Fighters to what you suggest, would be to buff those pets to make them resiliant vs the current aoe range of damageing either currently, or future events that happen. As far as the Aux based parts, I have Mixed feelings about that. I like that the higher aux increases the recharge speed of the pets. And it does some what make sense on giving the Carriers a way to disable the pets, despite that it's not as useful as it probobly should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTempest
3. keep hull and shields the same...
I would have prefered to have the higher shields that the Vor'quv originally had my self. But with the change to how Shield max capacity is tied to your skill trainings, I can understand it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTempest
4. We need some fighter and bop management tools...even just a counter to show how many fighters you have active is a step in the right direction.
I agree with this. It would be nice to have some place on a Carrier's UI that tells you how many pets are currently active on the battle field so you know weither or not you have to launch more. It can be difficult to keep track on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTempest
5. Take another look at fighter and bop damage capabilities...if you increase the cap back to pre-nerf levels...then perhaps they don't need to be buffed...if you don't return the cap back to pre-nerf levels, then please look at boosting their damage output and buffing their survivability.
The ONLY pet that deals more damage then any other pet, is the Bird of Prey. And the reasons are:
A: Rapid Fire 1
B: High Yield 1
C: Normal weapons.
D: Not considered shuttles.

Their ability to cloak doesn't affect their damage enough to matter like the other 4 listed. Their Rapid Fire 1 and them having normal weapons, and not considered shuttles means their Dual Cannons can penetrate shields better, even at balanced energy settings (Which I assume they are all set to). And the High Yield 1, Normal weapons, and Not considered shuttles means their Photon Torps deal alot more damage then the To'duj fighters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTempest
6. A slight buff to he turn rate would be nice....just a point or two could make a difference.
They were already given a buff of 1 point to their turn rate. And while it would be nice to increase their turn rate further, it would imbalance the Carrier because it would increase the ability to use skills that are on a frontal arc. Not to mention it might even make it more viable to use the Dual Heavy, and Dual Cannons that CAN be added to the Carrier, giving it even more damage out put by it's self, which the Carrier is not necessarely ment to have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTempest
7. Maybe look at increasing the range at which you can start launching birds...from 15to 20.
I disagree, the Pet launching at 15km is far enough. Pushing it even further means that ships would have to travel further, and the carrier would have more time to launch more waves of pets (If the carrier wasn't returned to it's original pet launching cap.) It would also lead to Mask Energy Signature as the prime power for the Carrier, because it could launch it's pets, then "Cloak" by the time an enemy reached the Carrier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTempest
8. Officer layout is fine...no change needed.
True, the Bridge officer lay out is quite impressive and really doesn't need any changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTempest
Just some thoughts. I know that there is some angst when it comes to carriers...but the last round of nerfs went a bit too far....some rebalancing would be appreciated.
And I have responded with my reasons why each of those changes would be either bad for balance, or not necessary as the current Vor'quv set up is barely balanced as it is and what would more then likely happen if the changes you suggested were to happen from my experience as a Vor'quv pilot.
Ensign
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 19
# 3
08-19-2012, 09:51 AM
Hi, just to comment on some ideas:

4. Hell yes! we need a counter, only the Power Syphon Drones have something similar to this but it only works when the alive ones are sticked to the target.

5. I find BoP AI annoying, its more "reallistic" than the one in fighters, but I don't really use them cause they seem to cloak too much instead of looking for targets, also their use of speed and turn rate makes them subefficient imo.

7. this one is kind of silly imo, since you can launch from any distance as long as you dont have a target when you do, so simply untarget with escape, launch, and then re-target will do the trick. If you had some fighters over the target before untargeting they will keep attacking original target til you target another ship. The only con is some fighters will go to the (wrong) nearest targetable ship despite the target you select afterwards if the latter is very far.

8. perhaps a change in one Boff slot to universal?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 110
# 4
08-19-2012, 10:52 AM
its fine how it is, we need a new carrier, that is faster and lighter.. with higher turn
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 979
# 5
08-19-2012, 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons8 View Post
its fine how it is, we need a new carrier, that is faster and lighter.. with higher turn
Seriously? Kar'fi...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 6
08-19-2012, 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archived Post View Post
The VoQuv needs a bit of a redesign IMO....

Here are some ideas...

1. Give the Vo'Qov a cruiser weapon load out - 4 slots fore and aft. Take away the sub-system targeting for balance.
I disagree. The VoQuv is a carrier not a cruiser.

A balanced trade-off would be to LOSE two weapon slots so that the ship has two fore and two aft weapons only...

and in return receive two extra hangars.

-HOWEVER- it does not mean the VoQuv will launch more pets than it does now. Right now we have 4 deployed wing limit. The two extra hangars we get will also have the 4 wings max limit.

The difference? You could load up to 4 different pet types (or a pair of different pet types, aka 2 bops and 2 toduj) and launch one wing of each if you want.

Quote:

2. Return the fighter and BoP cap to pre-nerf levels, and remove the reliance on Aux for the launch rate. I know that this was done so that the hangers could be interdicted...but the truth is that I have not seen much Aux targeting in pvp...all this does is to force a carrier pilot to reduce shields and weapons power...which is actually a double nerf.
Pre-nerf? Ive been playing since beta and the launch rate was never nerfed. What was nerfed was the amount of pets we had out.

If you're a carrier running low AUX you're doing it wrong.


Quote:
4. We need some fighter and bop management tools...even just a counter to show how many fighters you have active is a step in the right direction.
Agreed.

Quote:
5. Take another look at fighter and bop damage capabilities...if you increase the cap back to pre-nerf levels...then perhaps they don't need to be buffed...if you don't return the cap back to pre-nerf levels, then please look at boosting their damage output and buffing their survivability.
The nerf to damage was a 25% loss...but that 25% is regained in the dilithium version of the pets so overall we just have to pay dilithium to regain that damage.

The REAL nerf to the damage was the flight pattern changes. Before the BOPS would fly together, fly together and strike the same shield together. Before, the BoPs (and other pets) would return to carrier instantly... they used FULL IMPULSE the moment you recalled them. Now they crawls like worms as if they hoped the carrier dies before they return to it.

Then the AI command also got screwed up. They put the orders to repeat from carrier every second so you can no longer send pets to fight one target while you engage another...or fight one target and order pets to escort or heal another player..because the instant you change target your pets also change target. Its just DUMB. They did not do this before.

Finally, the last flight pattern change that REALLY screwed up the BoPs was that when they come to rest near your carrier they end up pointing their noses in random directions..and when you order the attack they hit the afterburner...and rush off in that direction....and spend a looong time turning to target. Thus they never fire weapons or torpedos most of the time they just hit target with dinky turret. They did not do this before. Before they would slow down to 1/4th impulse when they changed target, quickly turn to face the new target and head in a straight line to target firing the whole way in. When they came to your carrier they would face in the same direction your carrier faced.

All in all the nerf to the flight maneuvers of the BoPs is what really screwed them up. Cryptic does not want to admit or work on this anymore.

Quote:
6. A slight buff to he turn rate would be nice....just a point or two could make a difference.
You're a carrier. No.


Quote:
7. Maybe look at increasing the range at which you can start launching birds...from 15to 20.
Target yourself and launch them. Duh.

BoPs will obey orders to attack targets out to 15km. That is a big advantage right there.

Quote:
8. Officer layout is fine...no change needed.
I disagree. IF the VoQuv was changed to two fore weapons, two aft and given 2 more hangars then it should also have the Lt Science station transformed into a Lt Cmdr station. Trade one gun for 2 hangars (still 4 wings max so its not +damage just +versatility) and the second gun traded for the Lt Cmdr science station.

That would make this ship a true carrier dreadnaught. Big, tough and its damage being its pets not its own guns.



One minor cosmetic change to the VoQuv though.. please change the spot where the turrets/cannons fire from. Its really dumb to see a huge carrier firing a little stream of bullets from the nose. Change it to fire single cannons, turrets and beam arrays from at least 3 different locations in the ship... one on each wing (somewhere) and one in the top/bottom rear of the ship. The dual beams/dual cannons fire from the current in-wing position.
http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,208
# 7
08-19-2012, 01:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
I disagree. The VoQuv is a carrier not a cruiser.

A balanced trade-off would be to LOSE two weapon slots so that the ship has two fore and two aft weapons only...

and in return receive two extra hangars.

-HOWEVER- it does not mean the VoQuv will launch more pets than it does now. Right now we have 4 deployed wing limit. The two extra hangars we get will also have the 4 wings max limit.

The difference? You could load up to 4 different pet types (or a pair of different pet types, aka 2 bops and 2 toduj) and launch one wing of each if you want.
This is a worst idea I have yet heard...

Basically it would neuter the carrier permanently. I have been flying this ship for two years.

Alot has been taken away from it, and yet players have still mastered it dispite.

Stop to think about what you are suggesting before making such insane statements.

You're basically suggesting a T5 ship become the equivalent of a T2/T3 ship on paper in terms of weapon layout. What possible use would you have for it, with this limitation??? ("Oh wait! Let me launch my hull repair drones, that will turn the tide...")

All you need is roughly 10 secs out of red alert to swop pets anyway.

What difference is it going to make when you can swop in battle, and you only have 4x weapons on a escort determined to kill you. Even the worst player in STO would be able to tank all damage you could possible throw at him. And in a game where victory is determined ONLY by DPS, it is a given that the escort will win. It will be able to lay down a constant barrage of CRF on a ship that has no bite. Pets would contribute nothing more to the fight, than what they are already as you still would only be able to launch xnum. Its not like there's anything you could possibly launch given your setup, that would turn the tide???

CARRIER PETS do not equate to the maximum DPS of a carrier pilot, his DPS from his own build does.....

What you are suggesting turns the carrier into a jack-of-all-trades, and master-of-none.

Carriers are supposed to be impressive behemoths on the battlefield. THEY ARE NOT SUPPORT SHIPS.

Last edited by drkfrontiers; 08-19-2012 at 01:40 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 8
08-20-2012, 09:51 AM
You may have been flying them for a year but apparently you have not paid attention to the ship.

Your statement shows you fly the CARRIER like a cruiser with pet dps as damage add on.


Carrier != Cruiser.


You do not get 10 seconds of no red alert while in combat unless it is in between combat phases (blow the gates, donatra pops, etc) and removing yourself from combat just to swap pets is a really,really bad idea. A stupid concept too as a CARRIER you are supposed to be a pet class and as a pet class you should have access to pets without having to swap anything.

Losing two weapon slots does nothing to the dps of the carrier itself unless you run the carrier like a cruiser with high wep power in which case you're wasting your time flying the VoQuv and should instead be flying a Kar'fi.

If an escort is determined to kill you there is no difference between having 4 weapons or 6 weapons total. You will not do enough DPS with your guns to take it down. The VoQuv defeats escorts through pets and tanking abilities not weapon slots.

And it is in that situation where 4 hangars would be extremely handy. Launching up to 4 different pet types can allow a versatility which can help you defeat the escort faster than before. 2 shield drone wings and 2 birds of prey deployed can give you a significant boost to defenses and a very good damage output via pets. or 2 birds of prey and 2 toduj wings for constant damage applied to target (as opposed to 4 birds of prey that circle endlessly firing the useless turret and rarely fire their torpedoes).

MOST importantly.. you could load all 4 of the same pet and launch a full 4-wing set at once. No need to wait for the reload of the hangars to launch your full 4 wings. Or 4 drain drone wings in one pop.

"CARRIER PETS do not equate to the maximum DPS of a carrier pilot, his DPS from his own build does....."

Have you ever bothered to look at the damage output of the pets? I know you haven't by this ignorant comment.

A SINGLE bird of prey outdamages the carrier's full weapon complement in one pass (burst damage). Two wings of ToDujs out-dps the carrier's entire weapon complement in the long run (sustained dps).

Pets do AI-type damage. That means their torpedoes hit the shields for full damage..there is no damage reduction from shields. A single bop torpedo (no high yield active) does 8k damage to shields and ~10k to hull. Carrier loading a torpedo would not match that damage to shield unless it did a -II attack..or a beam overload.

Finally, it shows you also do not know how to make your pets DPS. 4 wings of ToDujs can destroy a player in an escort very fast. Attack.... wait until the cloud of todujs fires its cloud of torps... then RECALL..let them fly back a few seconds, ATTACK again...

the ToDuj's will that way constantly fire torpedoes and from one vector (rather than circling the target hitting multiple shield facings).

Bird of Prey can also do this trick although it requires a lot more timing and practice.... the change to their flight AI fubar'd the BoP greatly.

Slavers can create gigantic minefields with this method as well.


... but then again, you probably just deploy the pets and leave them under attack order the whole time while engaging the target as if you were a cruiser. No attention paid to pet performance or their control.
http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 110
# 9
08-21-2012, 05:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archived Post View Post
The VoQuv needs a bit of a redesign IMO....

Here are some ideas...

1. Give the Vo'Qov a cruiser weapon load out - 4 slots fore and aft. Take away the sub-system targeting for balance.

2. Return the fighter and BoP cap to pre-nerf levels, and remove the reliance on Aux for the launch rate. I know that this was done so that the hangers could be interdicted...but the truth is that I have not seen much Aux targeting in pvp...all this does is to force a carrier pilot to reduce shields and weapons power...which is actually a double nerf.

3. keep hull and shields the same...

4. We need some fighter and bop management tools...even just a counter to show how many fighters you have active is a step in the right direction.

5. Take another look at fighter and bop damage capabilities...if you increase the cap back to pre-nerf levels...then perhaps they don't need to be buffed...if you don't return the cap back to pre-nerf levels, then please look at boosting their damage output and buffing their survivability.

6. A slight buff to he turn rate would be nice....just a point or two could make a difference.

7. Maybe look at increasing the range at which you can start launching birds...from 15to 20.

8. Officer layout is fine...no change needed.

Just some thoughts. I know that there is some angst when it comes to carriers...but the last round of nerfs went a bit too far....some rebalancing would be appreciated.

I like ur thoughts but i dont see them coming thats why i sold me voquv carrier and stick only with karfi carrier.

It seems that since it went f2p company cares only about federation players......

Proof is all the new federation ships compared with our kdf ones.

Mega proof is the federation escort carrier that is dominating EVERY THING!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 130
# 10
08-21-2012, 06:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archived Post View Post
The VoQuv needs a bit of a redesign IMO....

Here are some ideas...

1. Give the Vo'Qov a cruiser weapon load out - 4 slots fore and aft. Take away the sub-system targeting for balance.

2. Return the fighter and BoP cap to pre-nerf levels, and remove the reliance on Aux for the launch rate. I know that this was done so that the hangers could be interdicted...but the truth is that I have not seen much Aux targeting in pvp...all this does is to force a carrier pilot to reduce shields and weapons power...which is actually a double nerf.

3. keep hull and shields the same...

4. We need some fighter and bop management tools...even just a counter to show how many fighters you have active is a step in the right direction.

5. Take another look at fighter and bop damage capabilities...if you increase the cap back to pre-nerf levels...then perhaps they don't need to be buffed...if you don't return the cap back to pre-nerf levels, then please look at boosting their damage output and buffing their survivability.

6. A slight buff to he turn rate would be nice....just a point or two could make a difference.

7. Maybe look at increasing the range at which you can start launching birds...from 15to 20.

8. Officer layout is fine...no change needed.

Just some thoughts. I know that there is some angst when it comes to carriers...but the last round of nerfs went a bit too far....some rebalancing would be appreciated.
You might actually like the Fleet Corsair Flight Deck Cruiser Retrofit.
  • 4 fore weapons
  • 4 aft weapons
  • subsystem targeting
  • 8 base turn rate
  • 1 hangar
  • good boff layout
  • decent hull and shields

http://www.stowiki.org/Fleet_Corsair...uiser_Retrofit


EDIT - didn't realize this was a necro thread.

Last edited by blunted74; 08-21-2012 at 06:35 AM.
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