Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 111
# 41
08-21-2012, 11:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
HMM, well that could be an interesting idea for Romulan ships: don't give them Dual Cannons forward, give them Dual Dannons to the rear.
On my little BOP I pack turrets on the back. If no one's behind me it lets me fire them forward along with my other cannons. If someone is behind me, popping rapid fire with the turrets tends to do the job of whittling down their shields as I come around to bring the rest of my weapons to join in.

A high yield transphasic volley in the face does wonders while the rest of my cannons are high speed pewpewing.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,186
# 42
08-21-2012, 11:14 AM
Meh, I was thinking DHC's on the back and maybe some mine launchers up front. LOTS of them.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,837
# 43
08-21-2012, 11:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordmalak1 View Post
Meh, I was thinking DHC's on the back and maybe some mine launchers up front. LOTS of them.
And the Warbird becomes "da Minebird".
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 512
# 44
08-21-2012, 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
This^^^. The Raptor only falls short in its turn pivot. Takes way too long for that nose to travel to target.
All Escorts out turn it and even the Armitage can out turn it.
Thats sad and needs to be addresed, or they can make the Raptor the first 5/2 weapons set up to compensate.
Until one other or the other is done, the KDF has a subpar version of an escort compared to every other escort in game.
I would LOVE to see the Raptor get a significant bump up on hull, personally. More than the Bug for the Qin. That's the point, isn't it? The first Raptor we see is sitting so deep in a gas giant's gravity well they could barely reach it. This is a HEARTY ship.

...well, hull along with converting all KDF ships to having an additional console and coming with a Cloaking Universal Console, so I can trash it and drop in an RCS.
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Last edited by jnohd; 08-21-2012 at 01:35 PM.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 972
# 45
08-21-2012, 02:54 PM
we need to make it more bang for buck to play kdf that way they might start making kdf ships
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 48
# 46
08-21-2012, 04:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
This is a textbook example of missing the point.
Nobody here asks for ships to be identical.
Nobody asked to be integrated into the Federation.
What people ask is:
"why are Klingon Raptors at best comparable in some parts and certainly inferior in others?"
Because last time I checked "balance" is achieved by giving a unit (as a general term) a certain number of characteristics with a certain number of advantages and disadvantages that should even each other out.
In this case we have Raptors with the same strengths as their Federation counterparts and an additional weakness.
Why the heck is this weakness not compensated by something (for example by fixing the turn axis)?
That's the point you're missing.
I haven't missed the point, I know there is an issue with the pivot point of the raptors as it is now, one that would be nice to have fixed.

The point I am trying to make is in response to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingmaster View Post
Or, they could dump the pointless raptor class and buff the BoPs to be able to do the work of BoPs and raptors combined. Then put in a dedicated science vessel line. That'd be a great improvement, right off the bat. BoPs that don't crumple in the face of Fed Escorts, and actual science ships (not the varied C-store only ships they've passed onto us).
And that point is, the raptor class should not be dropped and have the bop buffed to fill both the raider and escort roles.

Also, after more thought, checking the base stats of fed escorts at t4/t5 and the qin raptor, as well as the recollection of another post somewhere in these forums, I have come to another conclusion. And that is:

Fed escorts should out turn kdf raptors, the base turn rate of the AE, MVAE, and the blockade escort is 16 vs the raptors base of 15, the turn rate of any defiant model at any rank is 17 base, the only one that has matching turn rate is the HEC.
Considering the above with the fact that raptors are one of the oldest class and model of ships in the kdf lore and history, as mentioned in another post in these forums somewhere, it really comes as no surprise that the raptor is where it is now.
At the end of the day, each ship has it's strengths and it's weaknesses, it is then up to the individual pilot to utilize those strengths, and negate or defend against the weaknesses.

As for not mirroring the fed escorts, asking for a line of ships to behave the same comeing from 2 different cultures with completely different outlooks on performance is asking for just that.

As an addendum, I don't recall seeing the raptor being called an escort, I do recall seeing it referred to as an escort cruiser (or was that cruiser escort) in a KDF only mission.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,279
# 47
08-21-2012, 04:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maddog0000doom View Post
we need to make it more bang for buck to play kdf that way they might start making kdf ships
As sad as it sounds, it takes the same amount of man-hours to make a Fed or KDF ship, but the Fed ship is going to sell several times more units. If it takes 200 man-hours to make a ship and you have the choice of selling 15,000 copies or 5,000 you don't need a business degree to know which ship is going to get made - and the same goes for Uniforms and the like.

Would KDF players be willing to pay for new ships if they cost $5.00 more then comparable Fed ships? I know that sounds harsh but Cryptic's just looking at the manpower versus ROI, IMO.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 471
# 48
08-21-2012, 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Exactly.
We KDF have been set aside again so Cryptic could focus on more pressing concerns, like endgame, but we where not forgotten or left to die.
Oddly enough rumor from Vegas says we KDF fans are desired to continue our campaign for completion so they changes we desire can be pushed and proven needed to the hihher ups.
Makes me happy to hear this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
I compensate for the Raptors weak turn pivot, not rate mind you but pivot point that makes the nose too slow (meaning that all escorts ingame can turn inside you in a dog fight- a glaring weakness in any escort class vessel) to come to target.
I use twin ApO to get the turn boost up as much as possible or I sacrifice armor for RCS consoles and I always use my impulse engine speed to make for as tight a turn as possible. I even carry Engine batteries to use to get as much turn as possible becuase in a dog fight turning is key to victory.
My complaint about the Raptor is that in all respects it is a copy paste of the Defiant-R and a poorer shadow of the other fed escorts that gains nothing to call its on unique flavor. Not even Cloaking.
If the vessel is not to be a dog fighter or scrapper, with the ability to turn tight and swiftly to keep its opponent always in its sights, then it need to be the Brute or warrior of the line rushing headlong into the face of battle with guns blazzing, ready to come around for another pass to decimate any foes left standing from its first onslaught.
I already experience the need to do wide sweeping turns to get those passes down, especially with the vessels long nose travel. Unfortunately the Raptor does not fall into iether description due to this and is niether scrapper or brute.
If the turn pivot is not to be addressed and one must keep the long nose travel to keep the Raptor different from the fed escort designs then its time the Raptor had a strictly KDF design of mostly forward weapons points.
Give it a 5/2 set-up weapons set-up so the charge it has to make is more inline with how it has to be flown. The slower turning brute to the faster turning fed scrappers. No otehr change would ever be needed.
If that is the case then an analogy like the skies over China in WWII would be appropriate. The P40 Warhawk could not turn with the Zero, but could out run a Zero in a dive. Also the P40 did not have the defensive roll rate of the Zero, but it had the armor in spades.

Take the Defiant as the Zero and go from there to make the slower turning Raptor Chennault's P40. Up armor the Raptor, leave the pivot point and turn rate where they are, increase the Raptor's inertia. Now you can use the punch through, run on, turn back and repeat method that Chennault taught the Flying Tigers to use and a Defiant is supposed to do, while preserving and enhancing the "unique feel" of flying the Raptor.

Sorry just my take on the disparity of the turn rate issue created by the Raptor's pivot point being there to make it feel different to fly than the Defiant.
If you are a pickle in a pickle jar you know every pickle's different, sort of, but really they're all just pickles...
They taste the same.

Last edited by piwright42; 08-21-2012 at 04:48 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 49
08-21-2012, 06:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darat View Post
-snip- At the end of the day, each ship has it's strengths and it's weaknesses, it is then up to the individual pilot to utilize those strengths, and negate or defend against the weaknesses. -snip-
The thing is, the 'strengths' of the raptor (more hull and shields, another tac console and weapon slot) don't compensate for the crippling turn point/pivot point deficiency. Hence, we have an inferior ship in overall (a ship that is technically supposed to be the KDF's response to heavy escorts). It's neither a good tank, nor a nimble DPSer. It's mediocre, and it shows.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,249
# 50
08-21-2012, 09:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingmaster View Post
The thing is, the 'strengths' of the raptor (more hull and shields, another tac console and weapon slot) don't compensate for the crippling turn point/pivot point deficiency. Hence, we have an inferior ship in overall (a ship that is technically supposed to be the KDF's response to heavy escorts). It's neither a good tank, nor a nimble DPSer. It's mediocre, and it shows.
They could assign then Qin/Somraw raptors higher turn stats so while the nose travel would still exist, hopefully it would snap around a bit faster on target.
But I do agree it is niether a remarkable escort or cruiser and has a very mediocre feel that does not lend it standing out as iether.
Possibly a damage bonus of sorts, as well.
He who laughs last thinks slowest.
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