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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 668
# 31
08-21-2012, 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spacepenguin121 View Post
So its basically the same, but has ~30% better turn and an extra tac console while only being marginally better in all other stats... good thing maneuvering and damage don't make much difference for an escort.

The way I see it, flying the bug is like running p2w consoles. Like the p2w consoles, its certainly true that lockbox ship are here to stay and nothing will prevent you from using one. Just don't try and pretend they don't offer the advantages that they do or expect people not to call you out on it. There is a reason they command the prices you see them for on the exchange and its not because RPers like the looks so much.
Well if you are going to go by that logic then the following ships are also P2W and are pure cheese to run....

The List of ships that follows.... ARE ALL P2W... and I will for now on call anyone I see flying them nooby noob cakes. Don't even pretend these arn't P2W there here to stay so suck it up nancy.

? Fl. Exploration Retrofit
? Fl. Star Cruiser
? Heavy Cruiser Retrofit
? Fl. Heavy Cruiser Retrofit
? FL Odyssey
? Exploration Retrofit
? Dreadnought
? Assault Refit
? Odyssey Operations
? Odyssey Science
? Odyssey Tactical
? Mirror Assault
? Mirror Star
? Advanced Heavy Retrofit
? Escort Retrofit
? Fl. Escort Retrofit
? Aquarius Destroyer
? Fl. Aquarius Destroyer
? Fl. Advanced Escort
? Fl. Patrol Escort
? Fl. Tactical Escort Retrofit
? Fl. Heavy Escort Carrier
? Tactical Retrofit
? Multi-Vector Advanced
? Heavy Carrier
? Science Retrofit
? Fl. Science Retrofit
? Research Retrofit
? Fl. Research Retrofit
? Fl. Reconnaissance
? Fl. Deep Space
? Fl. Advanced Research Retrofit
? Fl. Long Range Retrofit
? Long Range Retrofit
? Atrox Carrier
? Advanced Research Retrofit
? D'Kyr
? Fl. Ning'tao Retrofit
? Hoh'SuS
? Fl. Hoh'SuS
? B'rel Retrofit
? Fl. Qin
? Somraw Retrofit
? Fl. Somraw Retrofit
? K't'Inga Retrofit
? Fl. K't'Inga Retrofit
? Fl. Tor'Kaht Retrofit
? Fleet Negh'Var
? Bortas
? Bortasqu' Command
? Bortasqu' Tactical
? Bortasqu' War
? Vor'cha Retrofit
? Mirror Vor'cha
? Scourge Destroyer Retrofit
? Fl. Scourge Destroyer Retrofit
? Corsair Flight Deck Cruiser Retrofit
? Fl. Corsair Flight Deck Cruiser Retrofit
? Fl. Vo'quv Carrier
? Guramba Siege Destroyer
? Kar'Fi Battle Cruiser
? Varanus Fleet Support Vessel
? Marauder Flight-Deck Cruiser
? Jem'Hadar Attack Ship
? Cardassian Galor Class Cruiser
? Ferengi D'K
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 608
# 32
08-21-2012, 06:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spacepenguin121 View Post
So its basically the same, but has ~30% better turn and an extra tac console while only being marginally better in all other stats... good thing maneuvering and damage don't make much difference for an escort.

The way I see it, flying the bug is like running p2w consoles. Like the p2w consoles, its certainly true that lockbox ship are here to stay and nothing will prevent you from using one. Just don't try and pretend they don't offer the advantages that they do or expect people not to call you out on it. There is a reason they command the prices you see them for on the exchange and its not because RPers like the looks so much.
Excuse me why I go fly around in my P2W ship that I bought for 120mil, and my P2W weapons and consoles that I bought for 300mil, and my P2W DOFFs that I bought for 160mil :3

Who doesn't pay to win ? A PvE only player?

| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,548
# 33
08-21-2012, 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by husanakx View Post
I think people are far overvaluing that 5th tac slot... nice but not game breaking...

Really man jump in one... and compare it to the other escorts... the turn is nice yes... but its really not much more powerful then the other escorts.

I have been known to fly in matches with pretty good bug ships... and when I fly my other escort numbers its not like there doubling my dmg... the guys I fly with that are around my skill level... do right around the same dmg. That 5th console is a light advantage... but its no where close to an IWIN.... and smart piloting trumps turn rate every time.

Is it a better escort... YES... like Tick was saying though a bit late to be complaining about it now. Its not going anywhere... and frankly ALL but one of the New level of fed escorts sport 5 tac consoles... so ya... there is no going back on that one.... Makes me wonder why the heck klink ships don't have any 5 console escort options.
ive been complaining about it loudly since last december lol, doing it before it was cool. not counting the bug, in about 90% of my duels with escorts in any of the cruisers i fly, i can beat them, 80% of the time its not even close. the bug is different, and ive taken on more then i can count to get a true feel for them so i can be confident what i say about them is accurate. there is a CLEAR difference between bug duels, and with any other escort, in my experience participating in hundreds of these duels.

now assuming its a talented user, an alpha strike from them cant be effectively countered by yourself unless you want to blow rsp and guarantee a very short fight. you will take significant hull damage from them, and its not damage you can come back from. in anything less maneuverable then a defiant, the bug can keep pointed on them effortlessly, and can speed tank like no other with its better than other escort impulse mod. if its reversing, it can point at you in a second, there only way to stand a chance against a skilled user in one is snares, multiple snares. PTW consoles, tractor beams, plasma, anything but more then 1. but most carry PH and 2 omegas because they know this is their only exploitable weakness. those that don't carry enough of those i can beat. and, like mav's video showed, the only other way to to go toe to toe with a bug is to do it in a ship that is not at a maneuverability disadvantage, and then out fly it. keeping its cannon uptime low is your only chance.

turn rate is absolutely everything to a DHC user, he who has the most wins, thats why raptors suck so bad. just like with accuracy, if you cant hit you cant damage. i call out the 5th console a lot, but it really is the whole pacage that makes it as deadly as it is. the problem with the 5th console is that its the straw that breaks TT's back and allows it to deal so much hull damage when you would other wise be protected. its not the additional general dps it provides thats the problem. add a decloak buff with the fleet defient and a grow more worried. a LTC science station power and 5 tac consoles has the potential to be scarey too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dantrainor View Post
Better =/= iWin
who needs balance right? why is better ok? for the 3rd time now, a better ship with a good user will beat a good ship with a good user. so i win it is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dantrainor View Post
Anything a bug can have 100% arc on, any other escort can do the same, to be fair.
If you're claiming a bug has 100% uptime of dhc's on another escort is poppycock, I'm sorry to say. Unless the second escort is trying very hard to suck.
i said 100% up time on something, theres more then just other escorts. and no, other escorts really cant keep uptime like it can.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dantrainor View Post
Well flown anything owns a pug match, what's your point? Chances are that player in a bug would be achieving a similar level of pwn in a fleet escort too.
less powerful alphas and lower on target up time. it will be as durable though. thats just a mathematical certainty.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tick0 View Post
This kinda reinforces my point that people are jealous until they get one. You're telling me you wouldn't even try to sell it for half a billion ECs?
tell you what, give me a half a billion EC, and i'll stay the execution i do have absolutely no interest in using one though. it could be even more op and i still wouldn't want to. id prefer playing within what i consider balanced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tick0 View Post
A question for you: do you plan on using the new fleet ships?
yep. got fleet ktinga and fleet vorcha. doubt i'd get any others. the fleet vorcha splits the difference between an escort and cruiser, doing the job ether is supposed to do not as well. but im a cruiser guy so its fun, thats why i like it. the ktinga i think is the best and most versatile cruiser in the game. it has the full suite of cruiser station abilities and absolutely awesome maneuverability. if i had to call ether of these ships op, id call the ktinga it. i also recently discovered that based on its per facing shield hitpoints that it has a shield mod of 1.07, its the same for other "inferior" fleet ships. the vorcha i can confirm has 1.1.

the fleet ships are hardly pay to win, just pay a whole lot. 10% better hitpoints is not enough to overcome any skill deficiency, and 1 more console, be it dump or useful, can be nice but hardly critical. the fleet ships arent even odyssey level, or above that at bug level.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 34
08-21-2012, 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aetam1 View Post
Now if you look at klingon escorts its a much sadder story.
This. Exactly this. I fly a BoP while PvPing, and I stay well away from bugs because I know I'm well out-classed. It WILL shred through my Tactical Team'd shields like tissue paper. The raptor. . .don't even get me started. The bug can and will fly circles around the raptor, no matter how much you try to boost turning ability. It will also out-DPS at the same time.

Funny how some Feddies like to complain about their escorts getting left behind by advances and by the bug, but rarely seem to care that KDF escort-level ships are in an even worse boat in many respects. These are the ships that are supposed to be more combat-oriented than the Federation ships, too!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,174
# 35
08-21-2012, 07:28 PM
Hilarious to see people defend the Jem'Hadar bug ship as not op. The raw stats say otherwise, which is in an entirely different league of their own.

The most fragile, most oftenly destroyed ship on screen in all Star Trek-dom, is the most powerful ship in STO. Then again, this is the same game that dictates that the ancient Excelsior-class is superior to the later developed Galaxy-class. Even more powerful than the later developed and cutting edge advanced Sovereign-class.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
# 36
08-21-2012, 07:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by husanakx View Post
Well if you are going to go by that logic then the following ships are also P2W and are pure cheese to run....

The List of ships that follows.... ARE ALL P2W... and I will for now on call anyone I see flying them nooby noob cakes. Don't even pretend these arn't P2W there here to stay so suck it up nancy.

? Fl. Exploration Retrofit
? Fl. Star Cruiser
? Heavy Cruiser Retrofit
? Fl. Heavy Cruiser Retrofit
? FL Odyssey
? Exploration Retrofit
? Dreadnought
? Assault Refit
? Odyssey Operations
? Odyssey Science
? Odyssey Tactical
? Mirror Assault
? Mirror Star
? Advanced Heavy Retrofit
? Escort Retrofit
? Fl. Escort Retrofit
? Aquarius Destroyer
? Fl. Aquarius Destroyer
? Fl. Advanced Escort
? Fl. Patrol Escort
? Fl. Tactical Escort Retrofit
? Fl. Heavy Escort Carrier
? Tactical Retrofit
? Multi-Vector Advanced
? Heavy Carrier
? Science Retrofit
? Fl. Science Retrofit
? Research Retrofit
? Fl. Research Retrofit
? Fl. Reconnaissance
? Fl. Deep Space
? Fl. Advanced Research Retrofit
? Fl. Long Range Retrofit
? Long Range Retrofit
? Atrox Carrier
? Advanced Research Retrofit
? D'Kyr
? Fl. Ning'tao Retrofit
? Hoh'SuS
? Fl. Hoh'SuS
? B'rel Retrofit
? Fl. Qin
? Somraw Retrofit
? Fl. Somraw Retrofit
? K't'Inga Retrofit
? Fl. K't'Inga Retrofit
? Fl. Tor'Kaht Retrofit
? Fleet Negh'Var
? Bortas
? Bortasqu' Command
? Bortasqu' Tactical
? Bortasqu' War
? Vor'cha Retrofit
? Mirror Vor'cha
? Scourge Destroyer Retrofit
? Fl. Scourge Destroyer Retrofit
? Corsair Flight Deck Cruiser Retrofit
? Fl. Corsair Flight Deck Cruiser Retrofit
? Fl. Vo'quv Carrier
? Guramba Siege Destroyer
? Kar'Fi Battle Cruiser
? Varanus Fleet Support Vessel
? Marauder Flight-Deck Cruiser
? Jem'Hadar Attack Ship
? Cardassian Galor Class Cruiser
? Ferengi D'K
dont forget that ALL ships now require dilithium to buy except the free type 8 shuttle (you get one free from a mission) and your inital miranda.... so all ships are "pay 2 win" in my eyes because the only way to get any ship is with dilithium. no otherway anymore.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,457
# 37
08-21-2012, 07:54 PM
People have complained about P2W since the 1st C-Store ship. Then more complained w/they ramped up C-Store ship production when the MVAE etc rolled out that holiday season. More complained w/+1 sub tier 5 ships and massive console rollouts. All was prior to F2P. A dev even admitted the initial ships were designed to be better despite the company claims to the opposite when they were 1st released. People have noticed the build in advantages of most of the lotto ships and complained again (since now it's chance based and encourages gambling).

As far as balance goes those who have complained have been correct all along and continue to be so. But, Cryptic has never cared so there's little point asside from creating player gentleman agreements in premade matches/tourneys. As I mentioned before I used to not use plas leech unless others brought their P2W consoles. But, I don't care anymore. Ships, Doffs, Consoles, Boffs are all out of balance.

Still, if Cryptic were to ever can its EP D.S. then perhaps PvP will get the attention it deserves and balance will be important. Currently, they won't even tag on fleet rewards to dilithium PvP rewards. They are trying to kill PvP, they will continue to release broken crap to do so.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,548
# 38
08-21-2012, 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
People have complained about P2W since the 1st C-Store ship. Then more complained w/they ramped up C-Store ship production when the MVAE etc rolled out that holiday season. More complained w/+1 sub tier 5 ships and massive console rollouts. All was prior to F2P. A dev even admitted the initial ships were designed to be better despite the company claims to the opposite when they were 1st released. People have noticed the build in advantages of most of the lotto ships and complained again (since now it's chance based and encourages gambling).

As far as balance goes those who have complained have been correct all along and continue to be so. But, Cryptic has never cared so there's little point asside from creating player gentleman agreements in premade matches/tourneys. As I mentioned before I used to not use plas leech unless others brought their P2W consoles. But, I don't care anymore. Ships, Doffs, Consoles, Boffs are all out of balance.

Still, if Cryptic were to ever can its EP D.S. then perhaps PvP will get the attention it deserves and balance will be important. Currently, they won't even tag on fleet rewards to dilithium PvP rewards. They are trying to kill PvP, they will continue to release broken crap to do so.
i feel the same way, i can basically deal with all of it. a lot of the stuff is low level and doesnt mater, the rest at level cap cant make up for skill, mostly. but even so, the bug is beyond the pale, in the realm of absurdity, overpowered. it is not ok. in every single stat category it is better then every other thing.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Ensign
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 18
# 39
08-21-2012, 08:14 PM
I'd have to agree with what Husanak is saying about the Bug ship. It is good but it is not as OP as many who don't fly one think it is. I'd say the advantage in turning the Bug has over most fed escorts is much smaller then the turning difference between a Raptor and those same fed escorts for example. The extra tac console is relatively new to the bug and was added in response to the new 5 tac console fed escorts which will be showing up soon enough.

There isnt going to be a difference in firepower once those ships show up and the BO layout is really going to end up being the same or very similar. Sure you might have the option of going 2x engineer or 2x science but why would you? It honestly would be a pretty stupid build. So in the end you are left with a minor difference in turning. Again, If anyone should be complaining it should be the KDF escort pilots as they have almost no viable options to choose from. The new Raptor(s) turns like ****, shield modifier is laughable, and has only 4 tac consoles.

At least fedside has viable escort options to choose from and some nasty new fleet refits. KDF side? Well let's just say they are F****D.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 677
# 40
08-21-2012, 08:39 PM
relax all guys, at the end its all about skill, and that 5th tac console really doesnt do much. Well, i didnt notice much anyway!
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