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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 154
# 19
08-22-2012, 12:14 AM
Originally Posted by eradicator84 View Post
Are you saying you run it currently? I haven't seen anyone mention APD as a skill they use on escort builds I've seen. (happy to be proven wrong though)
As far as I know it's a dud ability already as no escorts run it currently (in favor of APB/O) and it requires high tac slots which cruisers don't have but would and could make the most use out of it. Which is why I suggested APD1 should be moved down to an ensign skill pulling the other levels down as well so APD3 is LTC skill.
Not for my escorts, but for cruisers and sci ships in PvP. That was the point of my question, why would added threat convince me as an escort pilot to use it in PvE. Personally I think your proposal of moving Attack Patterns down to ensign is the best thing Cryptic could do with them. This would probably even end the old argument about the useless third tac slot.

Originally Posted by eradicator84 View Post
The only benefit I can see for escorts is the hull resist buff, but for it to work they need to be taking fire (already have aggro) and for the debuff to work their target also has to be firing on them. So it requires having aggro and taking hits from your target(s) to actually start working to its full potential. Something regular escorts probably don't want to be doing. So why not add threat to make it work better? That's why APB is the best for them offence wise (enemy doesn't need to fire on you), or for a balance APO for damage and resist buffs.

APD to me seems a very cruiser/tanky type ability, where one is dishing out (probably AoE) dmg, attracting aggro and taking a pounding.
Since APDelta is the only Pattern that can be used on others, yes for me it is more of a support ability. As it is basically only used by cruisers and sci ships ussultimatums proposal is actually a good 1. It could even save people points in threat and make it easier for regular cruiser captains to use escorts sometimes. But it would definitly not convince me to use it on escorts, it would probably even lead to me not even considering it an option anymore. Basically it wouldn't change that it is ideal for cruisers and your own fault for taking it as escort pilot.

Originally Posted by eradicator84 View Post
To me, for a skill that requires aggro to start working for you, adding threat would just mean it works fully more often and reliably.
Well, not for me. You still have to shoot the enemy to start threat generation. As long as there is no threat cruiser around you'll most likely keep the aggro of things your are shooting without threat. But if APDelta generates threat and there is a cruiser around that is not able to catch aggro from escorts if needed, for me this is a problem. My argument here is mostly for ships with only 2 tac slots, some of them the most tanky ships like the Star Cruiser or Gal-R. Even with Attack Patterns on ensign level, there is only room for a tac team and FaW. Generating AoE threat without FaW is, well, not easy.

Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Maybe you wouldn't.

Maybe some would.

APD is available to any ship with at least a Lt Tactical slot.

Someone who has a Sci or Eng in an Escort who rarely generates a ton of threat and does not have threat control might want a power like APD to let them help an ally out of a rough spot.

Whether they are in a Sci ship, Escort, Cruiser or Carrier.
Maybe you are right. Again I'm not really against the proposal and will stay with my opinion of escort flying with additional threat will do this on their own responsibility.

Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Honestly, I would like APD to stay as is with the threat generation component being say +500% and standard across all versions.

This would make your concern above a non-issue as a Cruiser would still have access to the highest available threat - just not the highest available Dam Debuff/Resistance Buff.
Indeed, this would solve a couple problems.

Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Outside of some PvP builds why would an Escort really want any version of APD now anyway?

For PvE (the scope of this thread) APB is completely superior and taking APD 3 on an Escort for PvE right now, instead of APB 3, CRF 3 or APO 3 is just a mistake.
Well, the problem here is there are so many things that aren't shooting at you and thus render APDelta useless. I know, obvious and doesn't have to be said, but even with added threat I would only consider Delta as inferior since there are too many occasions where it is totally useless.

Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
This is just not true unfortunately.

I've even said what you've said, but the fact is there are times you simply can't pull threat due to a number of things: for example the escort got there first and opened up with all their buffs.

Outside of an activatable power, it's incredibly unlikely that an Eng/Cruiser will pull threat once they are already behind in threat generation on any specific enemy.
Hmmm, maybe we are building our cruisers in a different way, but as long as tacs do not have threat I usually catch up pretty easy in threat. Even if the escorts open fire first, which due to the lame ducks most cruisers are happens, aggro usually jumps to me after a couple seconds of shooting. Yes sometimes it requires some effort, with the really good escorts, but I yet have to see an example of complete "threat fail"

Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Also keep in mind nothing stops an escort pilot from taking threat now and there are PvPers who in fact do this for the resist buffs because they can handle the increased threat.
Sure, that's why I said, if they can't take the heat it's their own fault and they deserve to die. It would be the same with threat generating APDelta.
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