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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,201
# 31
08-20-2012, 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pottsey5g View Post
lordmalak1 have you used the cluster since the Mine revamp? The mine revamp fixed it.
I have, and it didn't.
KBF Lord MalaK
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 76
# 32
08-21-2012, 01:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordmalak1 View Post
You actually using the cluster in combat, or are you simply recording damage on an idle target ?

I STILL find the cluster transphasic garbage- it's travel is rather slow compared to it's pre-season 6 incarnation, it gets shot down 50% of the time before it deploys it's minelets, and the minelets (once deployed) barely move at all to pursue it's target.

What was once my favorite weapon (pre-S6) is now only barely effective against stationary targets that don't shoot back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pottsey5g View Post
lordmalak1 have you used the cluster since the Mine revamp? The mine revamp fixed it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordmalak1 View Post
I have, and it didn't.
I don't know what you are observing, but as of the last patch, the cluster launcher is vastly improved, in some ways, even better than the pre-Season 6 version.

I, too, noted the decrease in effectiveness of the weapon when Season 6 hit. In fact, technically, before that even since I did some testing on Tribble and observed it there before it went live. I even submitted a ticket there detailing how it was now getting destroyed far more often than it was on live and was bummed when it made it to live with that behavior. Still, I did not give up on it with my Atrox because I also slot Scramble Sensors. This kept it from being targeted as much. However, the Season 6 changes definitely made it harder to make use of the weapon effectively, so I feel your pain.

However, as of the most recent patch, things are vastly different. The warhead in transit and the mines themselves are being destroyed far less frequently. You cannot expect a 100% success rate because they are, by design, intended to be destructible. However, over the last few days, I have noted a marked improvement in the likelihood that the mines would deploy and would hit a target. More importantly, I also noted a bigger change.

One of the things that always bothered me with the weapon is that, like any other torpedo-like warhead, it takes time to get to the target. Like all other destructible warheads, it travels even slower than a normal torpedo. That transit time, even with normal torpedoes, means that it is possible for the target to be destroyed before the warhead arrives. At least with normal torpedoes, the warheads detonate on the already dead target or just otherwise vanish leaving no evidence of your wasted shot. With this weapon, however, the warhead would just linger where the target was supposed to be, taunting you with a reminder of your failure.

As of last night, however, I noted a marked change in this behavior. That is, I noted that when a cluster launcher projectile is launched and its intended target is destroyed before it gets there, the projectile simply seeks out another nearby target. I first noticed this when I saw some mines deploy where I did not expect them, so I started paying closer attention, and, sure enough, if the target gets destroyed before the warhead arrives, it will track to a new target.

Thus, I don't know what you are observing, and, admittedly, I do still use Scramble Sensors, but I have seen a marked improvement since the last patch in the likelihood that the mines will deploy and hit something, and because the warhead is now tracking new targets if the original target is destroyed, it is more likely to happen than now than even before the Season 6 changes.

Last edited by sotaudi; 08-21-2012 at 01:18 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,201
# 33
08-21-2012, 01:44 PM
Hmm, well pre S6 my KDF toon (without scramble sensors) was used to seeing speed nearly half of my quantums and near 100% deployment rates with no observed misfires (from time obtained 2 months earlier to S6 launch). Occasionally would see a mine linger around target without action- usually around gates in STF missions).

Since S6 launch (rechecked after every patch) note slow initial launch aprox 1/4 quantum speed, and as of last patch maybe, MAYBY 50% probability of successful deployment of minelets, and of those minelets that start moving after 2 seconds of inactivity after deployment I'm LUCKY to see a down shield (YA, these mines damage shields) with almost no noticeable damage on target.

Now, given that each patch is correcting some of the issues from previous patches I'm still feeling this weapon is a feeble 60% of it's pre-season 6 awesomeness. I get better results from HY2 quantums. I cannot find a use for this nerfed to death POS weapon, and it's all I can do to NOT dump it from my inventory.
KBF Lord MalaK
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 76
# 34
08-22-2012, 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordmalak1 View Post
Hmm, well pre S6 my KDF toon (without scramble sensors) was used to seeing speed nearly half of my quantums and near 100% deployment rates with no observed misfires (from time obtained 2 months earlier to S6 launch). Occasionally would see a mine linger around target without action- usually around gates in STF missions).

Since S6 launch (rechecked after every patch) note slow initial launch aprox 1/4 quantum speed, and as of last patch maybe, MAYBY 50% probability of successful deployment of minelets, and of those minelets that start moving after 2 seconds of inactivity after deployment I'm LUCKY to see a down shield (YA, these mines damage shields) with almost no noticeable damage on target.

Now, given that each patch is correcting some of the issues from previous patches I'm still feeling this weapon is a feeble 60% of it's pre-season 6 awesomeness. I get better results from HY2 quantums. I cannot find a use for this nerfed to death POS weapon, and it's all I can do to NOT dump it from my inventory.
You could not possibly have checked the performance of this weapon since the last patch a few days ago if you are claiming a 50% successful deployment. Heck, it wasn't even that bad after the Season 6 change. Last night after running some STFs and Fleet mark events, I can recall only one launch where the mines did not deploy out of all the launches I did, and that includes the launches where I intentionally did not deploy Scramble Sensors just to verify this claim. Similarly, I question your evaluation of "almost no noticeable damage." I have seen these mines completely destroy a smaller ship, like a bird of prey or frigate even with shields up. I have seen 20% or more hull damage on larger ships with damaged but still intact shields. The difference between your observations and my experience is so different that I find your evaluation to be bordering on trolling.

As to the use of High Yield II vs. this weapon, you are doing the same thing most people do when they compare this weapon to others. That is, this weapon does not get the respect it deserves because people make apples-to-oranges comparisons. This is a niche weapon not suited for all builds and ships.

For instance, it is a perfectly valid argument to say it is not worth using on an Escort where you can slot multiple copies of High Yield III and/or Spread III with Quantum torpedoes. That setup will always out perform this weapon. However, I am not flying an Escort when I use this weapon. I am flying my Atrox. I do not have seven tactical BOff slots to play with. I have a single Lt. Tactical BOff station. And given that Tac Team is almost a requirement to slot, I functionally only have one BOff ability I can use for a weapons boost.

I could, as you suggest, slot High Yield II and go with Quantum Torpedoes. That, of course, assumes I am flying a ship with a turn rate that could guarantee I would be facing nearly directly toward or away from my target whenever that one ability was off cooldown. However, again, I am flying an Atrox whose turn rate barely exceeds the turn rate of a tectonic plate. That means that it is quite likely that my intended target will be out of the narrow firing arc of a torpedo launcher much of the time a torpedo enhancing BOff ability is off cooldown. That also means it is far more useful for me to slot a Beam Array: Fire At Will or Overload to enhance my beam arrays that will always have at least two, and more often than not, four weapons able to hit my target as long as it is in range because I can use that ability every time it comes off cooldown.

In other words, comparing the damage that you can do with High Yield II sounds impressive until you start factoring in everything else. On an Atrox, to use High Yield II, I would have to give up Beam Array: Fire At Will II (or Overload II). That means I would have to go with unenhanced beam weapons or give up Tac Team to get the level I versions, and giving up Tac Team actually decreases the effectiveness of both beam and kinetic weapons while it is active since it boosts damage some as well. That is a lot to give up just to get in an occasional High Yield II.

On the other hand, the Cluster Launcher deploys 12 mines. That is the same number of mines as a mine launcher deploying with Dispersal Pattern: Beta II. Beta II is a Lt. Commander level ability, one I cannot even slot on an Atrox. Not only that, but it deploys every time the launcher is off cooldown. That means that having Cluster Launchers effectively adds a free Lt. Commander level ability for each launcher you slot that is always off cooldown when your launcher is off cooldown.

Therefore, instead of your suggestion of going with High Yield II and having:

Tac Team I
Torpedo: High Yield II

I can effectively run with:

Tac Team I
Beam Array: Fire At Will II
Dispersal Pattern: Beta II
Dispersal Pattern: Beta II

Tac Team and FAW can be used every cooldown, and while the cluster launcher suffers the same limiting arc as the Quantums, it automatically triggers the Dispersal Pattern: Beta II every launch without wasting a Tac slot on it. There are other factors to consider as well:

If the first few mines destroy the direct target, the remaining mines will seek out another nearby target, making them more effective than High Yield II when you have multiple targets bunched together by a Gravity Well. If the first torpedo from a High Yield II launch destroys the target, the remaining torpedoes simply detonate on an already dead hull. Even more important, if the target of a High Yield II launch is destroyed before the torpedoes get there, they do no damage at all. As I reported, as of the most recent changes, the projectile from a Cluster Launcher now seeks out a new target if its original target is destroyed before the projectile is able to deploy the mines. When you add to that the fact that a typical cluster detonation will easily yield 12k to over 20k damage without requiring a single BOff station slot to achieve this. This means you can keep Tac Team and boost your energy with Fire At Will II every cooldown, and you will still yield kinetic damage numbers comparable to a High Yield II every time a launcher is off cooldown and the target is in the firing arc.

Yes, the fact that the weapon is destructible is a concern. Yes, the Season 6 changes greatly reduced the likelihood the weapon would deploy and detonate, but with the recent changes bringing the survivability of the warhead and mines back to the pre-Season 6 range, those concerns are less a concern than having to waste chances to use High Yield II because I couldn't get the weapon on target to use it and wasting a chance to boost my energy weapons, which could hit the target, because of that. When you add in Scramble Sensors taking the chance that the warheads or mines will be destroyed to near nothing, this and the other factors mentioned make this a very interesting alternative for a ship like the Atrox.

Is it a weapon for every ship and build? No. It is a niche weapon, but in the right situation, it is highly effective. Either way, your characterizations of the performance of the weapon in its current state tell me you have not tested it in the last few days or that you are simply trolling because my observations of this weapon are that it is back to the pre-Season 6 survivability and even improved in some ways. Your "POS" comment is completely unwarranted.

Last edited by sotaudi; 08-22-2012 at 02:51 PM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 715
# 35
08-23-2012, 02:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordmalak1 View Post
Hmm, well pre S6 my KDF toon (without scramble sensors) was used to seeing speed nearly half of my quantums and near 100% deployment rates with no observed misfires (from time obtained 2 months earlier to S6 launch). Occasionally would see a mine linger around target without action- usually around gates in STF missions).

Since S6 launch (rechecked after every patch) note slow initial launch aprox 1/4 quantum speed, and as of last patch maybe, MAYBY 50% probability of successful deployment of minelets, and of those minelets that start moving after 2 seconds of inactivity after deployment I'm LUCKY to see a down shield (YA, these mines damage shields) with almost no noticeable damage on target.

Now, given that each patch is correcting some of the issues from previous patches I'm still feeling this weapon is a feeble 60% of it's pre-season 6 awesomeness. I get better results from HY2 quantums. I cannot find a use for this nerfed to death POS weapon, and it's all I can do to NOT dump it from my inventory.
Not sure what is going on you?re with torpedo or how you can get no noticeable damage. The new torpedo has had a massive damage boost. My torpedo is well over 32k base after damage consoles, was around half that pre S6. Like you I had about a 50% successful deployment if I was lucky pre patch. Now after patch I have a 99% successful deployment.

There is no way the weapon has been nerfed to death. Tracks and locks new targets, massive damage boost, back to pretty much 99% development and the mines have stealth so get shot down less.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 207
# 36
08-23-2012, 02:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fulleatherjacket View Post
So you're using a setup that goes contrary to the prevailing wisdom of ship combat in the game: tons of energy weapons and energy weapon consoles only.

How's it working out for you? Killing targets consistently?
I'm also using a ship loaded with transphasic torpedos, the cluster one and an har peng.


It works very well actually. I even manage to pull off aggro fairly often. Of course, that's in Elite STFs...
If ARC becomes mandatory, I'll never buy ZEN again.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 53
# 37
05-20-2013, 10:40 PM
I am starting to think that the people that use the clustertorpedo and complain about no damage dealt are using this weapon without points in projectile weapons... You dont need torpedo specialization; just the projectile weapon skill...

I use the clustertorpedo on some of my characters and this thing (with full points in projectile weapons) can take away a third of a probe's hitpoints in khitomer (with a good hit and full shields...).
Also usefull vs spheres...

My 2 energy credits.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 211
# 38
05-21-2013, 05:28 AM
Photon: very good torpedoes, if you use 3 or more projectile weapons officers, you'll have good chances to fire 1 torpedo per second.

Quantum: these are my favourite ones, if you like using THY, these are the best choice.

Plasma: i don't like these, yes, they have good proc, but i don't like destructible torpedoes, and cause i love using THY, i can't use these.

Romulan Plasma: the ultimate ESTF's overlord ... nothing is better to obliterate cubes and gateways.

Omega Plasma: i've never tried these, but i saw them, and I don't really like them.

Chroniton: beautilful look and very good proc, but i don't like low damage torpedoes.
however, I got an Advanced Fleet Chroniton in an Aft Slot for PVPs.

Transphasic: i don't like them, low damage.

Rapid Reload Transphasic: same thing.

Breen Cluster: this is a real mass destruction weapon, but its slow, destructible and has a long cooldown.

Tricobalt: same thing ...

Bio-Neural Warhead: same thing.
Its widely used in torpedo build, but i really don't konw why (same thing for breen cluster and tricobalt).

ok, they deal massive damage if they hit the target but:
1 - they fire only once every 30-50 seconds.
2 - they are slow: a good escort would destroy 2-3 enemy ships while they reach their target.
3 - they are destructible: if someone uses BFW or CSV they will be destroyed and the user will have to wait at least 30 seconds before he can fire again.

o_O

however, i don't know this game very well, maybe i missed something :|
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,462
# 39
05-21-2013, 11:12 AM
As PVE,


Some people have really strange views in this thread.

My run down goes like this:

Photon: Highest DPS of non-unique torpedoes, reaching quite remarkable levels if you're using projectile weapon officers because the reload time on the photon launcher is completely negated. You get a torpedo every 2 seconds (not 1; there's a global cooldown involved).

Quantum: Lower DPS than photon, does not play as nice with projectile weapon officers, better suited to use with torpedo tactics since those tactics amplify the per SHOT damage, not the DPS. Use for escorts which can spare the tactics slots and don't want to boat torps.

Plasma: With PWOs, decent damage. Not as much as photons to bare hull but doesn't require holes in shields to be effective. Use on science ships, who will be running high aux instead of high weapons.

Chroniton: Junk. DPS pathetic, slow effect not worth the cost in damage output.

Transphasic: Junk. High penetration more than countered by low basic DPS.

Tricobalt: Junk. Absolutely abysmal DPS, and "big spike" incapable of killing anything other than a smallish ship with one shot.

Uniques:

Hargh'peng: Surprisingly good on tightly grouped targets because of the AOE effect. Works great in conjunction with gravity well. Otherwise, avoid.

Transphasic cluster: See tricobalt.

Bioneural warhead: As a tricobalt torpedo it is junk, but it has a pew pew blaster (which scales with your weapon power at launch) that adds a bit of damage as long as it isn't targeted and shot down. Comes out being pretty mediocre and awkward to use.

Hyper-plasma: Exceedingly high DPS, but clumsy to use. Unbeatable for tearing down large or disabled targets that can't get away from the torpedoes.

Ferengi missile launcher: Mediocre damage, wide arc. Think of it as the kinetic equivalent of a single cannon. Can be used to pump other torpedo launchers with PWO's. Pointless to use tactics with it, and makes tactics awkward to use with other launchers on the ship.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 134
# 40
05-21-2013, 05:27 PM
http://i.imgur.com/LV5VFJf.jpg

Nothing more need be said.
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