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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 141
08-23-2012, 09:02 AM
This may be an old thread but if people are reading it still there are a few things that need to be clarified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archived Post View Post
GET A DPS METER.

********************** WHY YOU SHOULD GET A DPS METER - I started playing STO 3 weeks ago, after hitting 50 in 3 days and starting Elite STF's I knew I was sucking... after much research I found this DPS meter and started tweaking. I went from 800 DPS per Elite STF or about 1.5-2 million damage done to 7200 DPS and 15-18 MILLION DAMAGE DONE. IN STARBASE 24 I HAVE RANKED 1ST 43 TIMES IN A ROW. I have not seen a SINGLE person do more than HALF the DPS or total damage done in a Elite STF since my last tweak 1 week ago. I run 10-30 Elite STF's a day.************************************

Getting a DPS meter is the FIRST STEP to recognize your problems and fix them.
This is incorrect in many ways. Yes, I agree the DPS meter is a good tool .. but it ONLY (Again: ONLY) helps you improve your build when used under controlled test situations.

The why is simple: The 'dps meter' program only adds up your damage and divides it over time. All your damage no matter what it was or what it hit.

In essence, you can be firing AOE beam or cannon or torpedo at a cluster of ships with a gate or cube behind it and hitting them all for 10 minutes and not killing any of them or even bringing their shields down....and the DPS meter will say: OMG YOU DID SO MUCH DAMAGE! .

...now you see why the dps meter is not a good indicator of performance if used in an elite stf or any other place other than a very controlled test environment.

Next:

Quote:

STEP 2 "WEAPON AND SKILL POINT OPTIMIZATION"

--------------------- Load Outs

NOTE: This guide will only cover All Beam Weapons because it is the highest possible DPS/Damage layout. CANNONS + 1 TORP ARE STILL AWESOME JUST BUILD YOURSELF CORRECTLY.

1. All Beam Weapons (Max possible dps from 6k to 9 or 10k depending if your amazing)
or
2. Cannons + 1 Torp (Max possible 4.5k to 7k depending on skill note-- does have higher single target damage but doesnt come close in AOE) MAKE SURE YOU USE 1 TORP TAC CONSOLE.
Wrong.

Cannons have the highest sustained DPS output if your ship and cannon is spec'd correctly. Key word: Sustained.

Beams have the most reliable sustained damage due to them not losing that much damage over distances.

Torpedoes have the highest damage against hulls.

Combo of ship weapons vary. A full cannon ship will significantly outdamage a cannon+torpedo ship but it won't outdamage a full beam ship if both are set to fire past 5km range. Inside 5km yes the cannons do much better.

Full projectile ships can do ungodly damage every 1 minute by combining mines and torpedoes. They are spike damage ships.

Next up:

Quote:

--------------------- Weapons

Only viable weapon types to maximize damage-

THESE ARE YOUR ONLY OPTIONS TO OPTIMIZE DPS AND DAMAGE. DO NOT RUN BEAM AND TORPS OR CANNONS AND BEAMS OR ALL CANNONS IF YOU DONT BELIEVE ME GET THE DPS METER AND RUN ELITE STF'S TO TEST--- I DONT HAVE TIME TO GIVE A DETAILED EXPLAINATION WHY.
So very wrong. Again he is basing this on the unreliable dps meter.

In general, disruptor and antiproton perform better for damage due to their particular procs. All other weapon types have their procs geared to specific ship builds. A power drain ship with polarons can and does kill faster than a full antiproton ship because shutting a ship down means hull hits the entire time..whereas the full AP ship has to deal with shields popping up constantly. Tetryon likewise is excellent for low wep power support ships as it strips shields for friendlies (very nice when used with tetryon glider too).

The list goes on. The point is, each weapon can be as damaging as another if its used with the right combination of abilities.

Quote:
- DO NOT USE BEAM OVERLOAD
- DO NOT USE BEAM TARGET SUBSYSTEM
- If you use these it will screw up your DPS
Here's a perfect example of why the OP is seeing fantasy high DPS on the dps meter program. If he doesn't use beam overload then he must be using fire at will on his all-beam ship. Fire at will does a lot of damage to multiple RANDOM targets...so the dps meter just adds it up and presents it as OMFG damage to the gullible.

Case in point, an 8-beam odyssey using fire at will nonstop at multiple targets and never killing or really hurting one of them will out-dps an escort that kills all those multiple targets in one pass (one at a time) because the dps meter merely adds damage up it doesnt really see how effective the damage is.

Beam overload IS an extremely good ability. Beam ships set up to do heavy damage rely on it.

Subsystem target abilities can increase your DPS exponentially. Targeting engines and knocking them out will increase the damage target receives (and the amount of critical hits inflicted on it) by a significant amount. It lowers the target's defense rating. Engine subsystem attack followed by a beam overload 3 = very,very high damage.

Quote:
DEBUNKING THE COMMON MYTH - "DPS calculators dont calculate my SKILL."
TRUTH - They do. Using DPS meters effectively will translate into you optimizing your class/skills/weapon layouts and combat techniques. If I didn't work on my survivability, combat awareness, broadsiding, time before engagement I WOULD NOT DO 7K DPS. Being skilled translates to a higher DPS/Damage done.
Funny thing is 7k dps is actually quite low for an escort.

DPS meters do not show effective damage, only total dumb damage inflicted.


Play smart, do it right. Have fun.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 239
# 142
08-23-2012, 11:14 AM
This is just a response in general and i'm not adressing the poster i quoted directly (if i do, i'll say so), but since he provided a nice roundup ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
This is incorrect in many ways. Yes, I agree the DPS meter is a good tool .. but it ONLY (Again: ONLY) helps you improve your build when used under controlled test situations.
Since STFs are the main testing ground for everyone, a DPS-Meter might as well be used there.
Just for the sake of not over-simplifying anything:
You can have a controlled testing environment, but since it will most likely only be a part of a full STF run, you can't simply take it, add it to you overall result stack and then take the mean value. Each result has to be individually weighted to be of any use in the resulting calculation. Is the target moving. Are (if a bunch of targets exist) some of them obstructed and only pop up occasionally. Are the targets shields down. Has it been debuffed ... etc.
Every single point mentioned affects your DPS. Some more and some less. Some are actually nearly insignificant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
The why is simple: The 'dps meter' program only adds up your damage and divides it over time. All your damage no matter what it was or what it hit.
Abolutely right here.
But again: It totally depends,wether you will actually profit from this tool or not.
If you want to deceive yourself, then fire at an ever regenerating, stationary target. You'll feel great about yourself, but essentially you won't have done f-all.
If a person actually tries to be efficient in an STF chances are high, that the damage depicted in the meter is actually close to the viable damage inflicte (viable as in actually usefull to the fulfillment of the mission and hopefully rather efficient).
A huge deal in achieving this is simple positioning. Position yourself in a way you won't be hitting the gate, but just the spheres in Infected-Space or just the probes and generators in KithomerAccord-Space. That's of course not always possible, but if you don't waste your DPS, then it will show you a more real value, that you can actually use to improve upon yourself.
In conclusion to this:AOE abilities aren't useless (or uselessly over-inflating you DPS), if used with a good firing-position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
A full cannon ship will significantly outdamage a cannon+torpedo ship ...
I personally can't say that's true. The difference is maybe 5% on what i've seen and that can go both ways. Truth be told i don't really care ... One torp just spices everything up a lot. Cannon boats are just too plain, too streamlined. It's just not fun enough. And i still think getting rid of one DHC in favor of a torp actually helpes you. 12 less power on average consumed is 24% damage you will get more out of your other weapons firing at a different cycle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Funny thing is 7k dps is actually quite low for an escort.
(ok now i'm adressing the quoted poster directly) Really?
Since the average escort player in STO does around 3k to 4k DPS in a STF this statement is just plain wrong. Maybe you do a lot more, but since you yourself deem the DPS meter a not very useful tool anyway (at least in an STF testing environment) this statement seems a bit out of place.
DPS is actually the value that should be taken, after the fight is done (ideallya less then 15 min period). Each time you die, take into consideration that you do 0 DPS for 15*n seconds and that the meter might restart it's count, affectively not counting your downtime.
If you really are better than the 7k "low" DPS score, then (effectivly) you must be doing over 11k DPS by yourself (sustained), while firing your weapons. I say this, because there is always downtime in a STF. You will always have no firing periods, where you try to reposition yourself or avoid destruction, or what have you. And assuming 7k is low i'm assuming you do a constant of 9k to 11k (or even more).
If you really think 7k is low, go into a random (Elite-STF) PUG and start your meter. Having only your own buff or debuffs at your disposal might prove a challenge.
With a good team on the other hand (buffing each other and applying cumulative debuffs (to your target), more then 7k are probably feasable.

Personally i don't like to die in an STF, cause downtime is always boring. I could substitute some of my BOFF skills (engineering or science) with more DPS enhancing skills or focus more an self-buffs and less on debuffs, but first off i don't want to die and second off, i don't want to be a selfish prick.

BTW (not to brag ) i'm doing 6,5k to 7,5k and mostly only with a good team (for a PUG group at least)

Last edited by freenos85; 08-23-2012 at 03:11 PM.
Ensign
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1
# 143
11-05-2012, 08:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archived Post View Post
In regards to dropping the DBB, that could net you a loss of DPS, due to the Ens BO slot that is wasted.

WIth only 1 Launcher, Projectile Doffs are not that usefull, but with loads of launchers they become invaluable, You are prolly better off with ET and ST doffs to kick out ALOT more healing.
If you think you are doing a significant amount of damage with mines then you have no idea how to play.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 261
# 144
11-05-2012, 08:21 PM
Nice post. I do 7k in my Fleet Tac-R, I tend to come up first 90% of the time in Fleet Actions and placed first in CE in a team of 20 or so. Hopefully this has bettered the damage output of a quite a few people.
Valdus | Charn | Costello | Typhus | Thyran

"[11/8 3:10] Julia Mateus@Aislin_Avari: Costello leaves, the average IQ of the game drops."
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,169
# 145
11-06-2012, 12:45 PM
I'm not really going to weigh in on the whole DPS build topic, as I'm still working out how I like my own builds, and won't dictate to others. However there is much I agree with and disagree with.

One point in specific: The different roles you take can dictate what your end DPS is. However, the example was kang guardian. The claim was this gives you more DPS. False!

Guarding Kang has consistently in every STF I have tracked with battlelog given LESS DPS than other roles. For one, you are performing a support role, and a necessary role, but BoPs have very little hull points. That's a finite amount of damage you can rack up, even if you do your job right. Further you're spending half your time travelling back and forth. Especially with MRRMLL. If you do 3-pronged attacks where the BOP man covers 1 lane while hitting nanites, you have a much higher dps, but otherwise if you're doing BoPs only you wil have a fraction of your DPS potential recorded in your stats tracker.

On the other hand, you might think KASE probe duty has the same problem, but it doesn't. I've got many top DPS matches on probe duty. The answer is simple: You have your own cubes to deal with and the nanites and the transformers to constantly keep your fire rate up. Firing more = more dps. Constant fire helps more than burst I would wager. It's the pauses in your firing that hurt dps overall, so taking off-side probe duty on KASE is a good way to get top DPS.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 146
11-06-2012, 11:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archived Post View Post
Few random things:

3k for a cruiser isnt good, with slacking and a lot of room for improvement 4.5k is norm for tac capt (eng cap will be few hundred dps less). Regular Assault Cruiser can easily get to 6k and more.

8 beams are great with 125 power to weapons, lower than that and turrets will be same if not better dps (its about power consumption per shot). Beams rock with fire at will but its in many situation not best idea to use, turret canon skill rapid shot is great for single target and you can use it every time its up. Another plus of turrets is for not to good pilots that have issues with broadsides tactics, as turrets have 360 degree firing arc and you will always hit with all 8.

In your setup i didnt noticed assimilated console, if you want to do any decent dps this thing is a must have. It came from first mission in undine line episodes.

About weapon dmg types:

I agree antiproton is great, disruptor is decent too, but tetryon kick *** too with nice build, its great for striping shields from opponent (combine with omega set 2 set bonus, tetryon glider, without dont bother), if tac cube have 0 shields and you run with random pug they attack from all sides, if shields are down cube and tac cube die much much faster.

If you run tanker healer cruiser and have far less than 125 weapon power tetryon with glider is way to go as it helps team much more than raw (low without 125 power) dmg.

I also played 3 weeks, my assault cruiser dps is around 5k through elite stf, could be much more but i need respec and its quite costly

Oh dont forget to cycle emergency power to weapons and shields, this helps a lot.

Just my 2c.

Edit. ps. Sardoc, polaron with Jem'hadar set is good dps, but i would advise against it in elite stfs. Issue is the plasma dmg coming from enemies, and JH shields have only 10% resistence to all. Best shield is maco for feds, as its same as jh 10% + 20% to plasma. Best setup imho is maco shield + omega engine, deflector for glider, but only if you have the skill that increase its strength, if not and you dont want to respec best setup i found out is: maco shield + deflector + retro borg engine + assimilated console. You get nice 2set bonuses from both maco and retro borg setcand maco shields are great against borgs. I can tank tac cube in elite from 20 sec to max 1.5 minutes depending if reverse shield polarity was up when i started tanking (i have 2 of those for 1 rsp each minute).
Ironically, even though this post was overlooked it had a hell of a lot more Truth-per-Sentence than the OP ever did.

Please do not put beams on your Defiants or whatever. Thank you.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 23
# 147
11-10-2012, 12:06 AM
Fleet Def-R... torp spread 1-2 (for unshielded targets) CSV2, APB3, APO1, CRF1 - 3 attack pattern doffs, 2 hazard system doffs...

Spec into Particle Gens to 6, projectiles to 9, carry a TBR2 (before the current buggy TBR2), Isometric charge.

1 projectile damage console, 1 quantum torp in front, 1 tricobalt mine in back (no disp pattern)

3 badass borg DHC's in front- disruptor/AP, 2 turrets in back

4 energy damage consoles, borg, tachyokinectic converter, field gen, monotanium alloy


EPTS1-2, HE1/TSS1, TBR2, 2x TT1 - won't tank the crit plasmas very well, keep BFI for that.

8500K DPS over the full length of the STF... but... pfft that. You have to be able to lay the damage right, so, debuff, penetrate shield facing, actually DESTROY the targets, that's what good spike damage is for. All that beam FAW all that bull that put up huge numbers in ACT isn't worth a hill of turds if you don't make the kills and clear out threats. 5 loaded FAW3 tac oddy's on full beam broadside blah blah blah won't get it done. Gotta spike, spike hard, spike often. Don't be dropping trikes or torps on shielded targets. Duh. Believe it or not, past about 8000-9000 DPS (achievable) it's too much AOE and is misleading. If you smash your targets quickly, your DPS will lower as you're using it more efficiently. You can do 14K DPS and not win a thing, because all you're doing is laying down fire into shielded opponents. The hull is what matters. Pop the target, get back on another target asap. Raw DPS to a high level is a good start, but you've gotta be able to pilot right, time buffs and debuffs right, and you can roll and STF despite "only" doing 6-7K DPS. Can ya hear me now?

And for god's sake, stop subnuking Nanite Gens/Transformers- they don't throw any buffs... Nuke the gates and tac cubes dadgum FAW and THY.. lord..
Survivor of Remus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 242
# 148
11-10-2012, 10:41 AM
I under stand this is a PVE style build so to add to the PVP side an all energy based build will make out against fed players an energy weapon build + 1torp of mine will max out your build against klings if spect right. Also 7k dps is the low average for a high lvl pvp player in spike dps. I've seen ships have 4 mil damage and not a single kill why because he was just an annoying. Go for the kill.

Last edited by wolfpack12c; 11-10-2012 at 10:46 AM.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 15
# 149 Time to Kill
01-17-2013, 05:09 PM
I propose a new way of measuring effectiveness:

"Time to Kill."

This wouldn't be the ONLY way of measuring effectiveness. It could be a place to start.

Basically your boat is more effective if you can kill things in a hurry. If it takes you 60 seconds to down a target, meh. If it takes you 15 seconds to down the same target, okay, you're making an impact!

Bottom line: how long it takes you to kill something is a potentially more useful stat than your overall DPS.

While DPS certainly plays a role in your "TTK", as some other posters have noted, you could rack up huge DPS numbers without necessarily being that effective in the game. It's really about killing things quickly, so you can move on to the next target, or to help your team mates. This TTK stat could even be part of your reputation in STFs. It could be taken cumulatively over a period of several STFs and then attached to your info. It might make for more thoughtful pairings if you're in an STF team and you see everyone has a higher TTK rating than you. I know, there are lots of variables to consider...I'm just positing an idea. Thanks for the great info. Peace.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1
I am going to be seeing about getting a carrier soon and was wondering if you could have your fleet member give me a heads up with his set up. Weps, fighters, consoles and skills. I'm Galeighan Socratain@lego80 Fleet leader of U.S.S. Starchaser. Hey thank you so much for this feed back. I'm in the middle of using your tips as we speak and look forward to the results. Thank you
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