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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
I didn't want to publish that kind of figures on the forums, but I think it's necessary to do so so that the devs get some help fixing the mess they made with the new fleet doff system. My point is to prove that it's the worst feature they introduced since the starbases exists, it can still kill the starbase system and the last - and poor - "fix" which makes the player unable to use them as project inputs just generates frustration and brings no solution to the issue they tried to fix.

I'll be using real figures and I will justify them with facts about my fleet. I can't give names, sorry, it's against the terms of service.

My fleet currently got 6.500.000 fleet credits. We are a small but active fleet of 20 players or so, but 10 of us are really active. We are a really small fleet but we can already break the whole starbase system with the fleet doff vendor and just rest on what we have, waiting for T5 to come without any efforts.

The top credits earned are:
564.000
507.000
443.000
428.000
424.000

It's pretty balanced. We didn't run any special projects after the first week, except the vanity ones.

So we have a total of 6.500.000 Fleet credits for an almost T2 starbase.

With this amount of fleet credits, we can buy right now 6.500.000/500 = 13.000 white fleet doffs. Of course, we can't use them, but we can be silly and go right away to starfleet academy and turn them into 13.000/5 = 2600 green ones.

Of couse, we have no use for green doffs, so we will revert them back to white, but genuine white doffs, which means 2600*3= 7800 genuine doffs.

Of couse, we won't stop here, because the party isn't over.

Grinding 5 whites into greens gives 50 recruitement CXP, and ungrinding 1 green gives us 100. Consequently, we get 150 cxp for each green doff. We will get 150*2600 = 390.000 CXP. This CXP can be turned into 390.000/75 = 5200 fleetmarks, which means 260.000 all new fleet credits we can enjou to milk more doffs.

This isn't over yet! Our 7800 genuine white doffs can give us 7800*100 = 780.000 fleet credits.

Consequently, we can generate (260.000 + 780.000)/500 = 2080 new fleet doffs, ie 2080/5*3 = 1248 new genuine doffs.

Of course, these 1248 new doffs are theoretical, since we won't be able to use immediately our former 7800 genuine white doffs, but they will exist at some point. Which means that the system could be repeated to reach more than 10k white useable doffs! With only 10 to 20 active players! Since the trick can be repeated until the last fleet credit disappears, the ~10% of civilian doffs are already removed from this amount of doffs.

Of course, we will still need some fleetmarks, but I guess that with some training, most of us can learn to slot the most profitable doff assignments for 20k CXP a day. Teaching that to 10 people isn't a big deal. So I guess we may have fun watching the starbase projects automatically complete after a lot of tedious but short transwarps between our starbase and starfleet academy. At least we're safe until T4, and the CXP we grinded should provide enough doffs to achieve T5.

Now, I hope everyone - devs included - understand why this fleet doff system is a game breakiing feature. They are incredibly too cheap. Their price needs to be raised x200 or 300, and it will still mean a good amount of doffs. Your last emergency feature removal did nothing but make people angry at you since you offered us the (almost) infinite doff generator and brought a new feature to trap other players on the exchange with fleet doffs.

Last edited by diogene0; 08-24-2012 at 06:57 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 871
# 2
08-24-2012, 07:23 PM
I don't really see how this is game-breaking. By your own admission your fleet is not even to Tier 2 yet. If it were as simple as you make it out to be, why aren't y'all pushing Tier 3? The answer is because it's a huge time investment. It takes time, dilithium, and EC to get those fleet credits in the first place, which you fail to take into account. It then takes more time to do this starbase-to-SFA back and forth trip you speak of....a lot more time. Most people don't have hundreds of free Doff slots. You're talking hundreds of trips back and forth and a lot of time spent at the grinder. Then you're going to have a ton of Doffs that are not needed for current projects while not getting the exact Doffs that are actually required. When you need 60 security or sensor officers you could grind to more than 1,000 useable whites and still not have what you need. Then you're going to have to mail yourself all of those unused Doffs to make room for the next round while describing which type is in each mail so you can retrieve them when needed.

In the end, it's a huge time investment, and you're not guaranteeing you get the required doffs. If everyone in your fleet wants to spend all of their time and fleet credits on filling the starbase doff requirements, that's your prerogative, but I'd hardly call it game breaking.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 436
# 3
08-24-2012, 11:02 PM
And you suffer an 84% loss in your resources doing this so you will quickly peter out and have no Fleet Credits or DOFFs so it does correct itself.

7,800 * 0.84 = 1,248
1,248 * 0.84 = 199
199 * 0.84 = 31
31 * 0.84 = 5

See how quickly the process becomes exhaustive. The real issue is why have people already banked 500k Fleet Credits? I had over a million. The price of the DOFFs is not the issue, the lack of things to buy with Fleet Credits is. The Fleet System has become a great resource sink for everything but...Fleet Credits.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,892
# 4
08-25-2012, 02:08 AM
i'm pretty sure this is working as intended! Cryptic wants me to stay 40 minutes a day next to the personel officer swapping doffs back and forth...and repeat it 3 times a week.

i also came to the conclusion, that the fleet base is only cosmetic...no real advantage in gear or ships. +1 console and HP doesnt justify the prize of 2k zen in my opinion.

on the topic...i will continue to spend my FC for doffs...since there is nothing else i can do with it.
Go pro or go home
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 5
08-25-2012, 02:25 AM
@skurf: I'm guessing, but ... they're probably only T2 because the fleet DOffs were just introduced, what, a week ago?
Also, why would you slot any project that needs non-generic DOffs at all? No reason. That's actually part of what diogeno0 is saying - IF you understand the system, you can abuse it. If you don't ... well, then you get abused.
'Looks like you are on the "getting abused" side, and diogene0 isn't.

@commodoreshrvk: what you're missing: you will still generate tons and TONS of fleet credits from the dil- and EC-contributions to starbase projects. Enough to keep the machinery running nearly forever. just a bit of actually playing, and it's actually "forever", without the "nearly".

Fleet Credits weren't MEANT to do something. All they were for was making people race the leaderboard. Giving them actual value was a major brainfart. The "fix" they made this week was an even worse one, as it really didn't stop the leak they opened, it just made most(!) people look the other way while busy raging, with a side-dish of economy-destruction. I'd call it an epic brainfart.

Essentially diogene0 is right: Once you got your starbase to T2, with a core of active and smart players ... well, you got your perpetuum mobile right there, a self-building starbase. Fortunately he left out enough that you'll have to do some thinking to copy it, it's not a fuil "how-to"-guide, but he's certainly given you enough of a hint.
And more than enough of a hint to make the devs think twice about it, I hope.
Expect a lot of drastic changes and nerfs soon, and even more crying and raging.

Last edited by flekh; 08-25-2012 at 02:28 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 6
08-25-2012, 04:21 AM
Yes.

My statement is:
- the devs tried to fix a leak they introduced with the fleet doff vendor
- this fix did nothing but making players angry, and it's not a fix at all since we can always having the starbase feeding itself if we know the game mechanics
- this fix is only a promise of mess and abuses on the game: you can abuse people who don't know the game mechanics

I'm just saying they should fix the mess differently, by a huge increase of the price of the fleet doffs. I'm also saying that not to create more rage and anger about the game, they should enable people to use the fleet doffs in the projects in the starbase again, after the price increase. Yes it will still break the game economy for some time, but it shouldn't last more than a few weeks. That's just a guess though, but giving some sort of compensation would be a welcome proof of goodwill.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 436
# 7
08-25-2012, 08:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
@commodoreshrvk: what you're missing: you will still generate tons and TONS of fleet credits from the dil- and EC-contributions to starbase projects. Enough to keep the machinery running nearly forever. just a bit of actually playing, and it's actually "forever", without the "nearly".
What you are missing, and assuming, is that the costs in resources for Fleet Projects will not increase. It sounds and looks good on paper, but you are following the a false assumption, we know resource costs will escalate. At tier 3 you are up to 60 doffs in some cases. So while it looks good on paper, even if resource costs remained the same, your momentum will drop precipitously. An 84% loss in resources at each step already buffer it.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 436
# 8
08-25-2012, 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
I'm just saying they should fix the mess differently, by a huge increase of the price of the fleet doffs. I'm also saying that not to create more rage and anger about the game, they should enable people to use the fleet doffs in the projects in the starbase again, after the price increase. Yes it will still break the game economy for some time, but it shouldn't last more than a few weeks. That's just a guess though, but giving some sort of compensation would be a welcome proof of goodwill.
Yes I agree with you, the current fix abuses the player base. Contrarily, I disagree that the "self feeding" starbase machine needed fixing because it is unsustainable. The loss of resources is far too great and you only really carry it out a few steps before you have to go back in and earn dilithium, fleet marks, etc... the fully intended way. The fix was not needed because there were so many buffers in the system already. Fleet Projects are time gated, only 8k dil per toon per day can enter the system (9k if you have the vet reward), the costs of a Fleet Doff = 500 FMs = 500 dilithium and you only get 75 dil for a dismissed Fleet Doff (84% loss). With all those buffers in place, someone still made a knee-jerk decision that created the issue we have now which seriously impacts the community.

In addition, Fleet Credits still carry little value.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 9
08-25-2012, 08:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodoreshrvk View Post
What you are missing, and assuming, is that the costs in resources for Fleet Projects will not increase. It sounds and looks good on paper, but you are following the a false assumption, we know resource costs will escalate. At tier 3 you are up to 60 doffs in some cases. So while it looks good on paper, even if resource costs remained the same, your momentum will drop precipitously. An 84% loss in resources at each step already buffer it.
I'll use science as an example, as those numbers are already on the wiki.

Tier 2, generic 1k XP project:
600 Marks, 120 DOffs, 40k Exp, 300 Data Samples, 300 Astrometric Probes

Tier 3, generic 1k XP project:
900 Marks, 200 DOffs, 60k Exp, 300 Data Samples, 550 Warp Coils

Before the patch:
The non-DOff contribution to the Tier 2 project gave you 35800 Fleet Credits, worth 71 DOffs. 20 of those would qualify for the project, along with 20 each from the mil and eng projects. Or: enough to fill half your project. Donating these, adds Fleet Credits again, enough to fill half remainder again, and so on. You get the remaining DOff from combining civilians.

The non-Doff contribution to the Tier 3 project gave you 54800 Fleet Credits, worth 110 DOffs.
31 of those would qualify for the project, along with 31 each from the mil and eng projects. Or: enough to fill half your project. Again. Donating ... you get the drill.

The "fix" slowed this down a little bit, as you're "only" ending up with half the DOffs from that simple project, but:

The Dil projects, when used, generated a HUGE surplus of DOffs. And still generate. At a very moderate cost:

Tier 2, Dil project for 500 XP:
600 Marks, 40k Dil, 40k Exp, 350 Data Samples, 10 Particle Traces
generates 76,100 Fleet Credits, worth 152 DOffs. 263 Dil/Doff. Or about 1.5 Zen per DOff.
Using the "fix", this generates 78 useable DOffs, at a price of 512 Dil, or still less than 3 Zen per DOff.
And these DOffs generate Fleet Credits again, for more DOffs.

Tier 3, Dil project for 500 XP:
900 Marks, 60k Dil, 60k Exp, 450 Data Samples, 15 Particle Traces
generates 113,400 Fleet Credits, worth 227 DOffs. 264 Dil/Doff. Or still about 1.5 Zen per DOff.
Using the "fix", this generates 116 useable DOffs, at a price of 516 Dil, or still less than 3 Zen per DOff.
... and more DOffs.
Enough to make up the difference. Dirt cheap.

If they revert the "fix", if goes back to full perpetuum mobile. With the fix, you'll have to burn SOME, and I really mean SOME Dil to finance the machine - but each Dil project will finance pretty much two non-dil ones, so basically you have to earn about 20k Dil per project extra, and get all the DOffs for free. 20k!
That's ... nothing. Easily manageable by simply playing two STFs every day, if we're talking ten people in a fleet. Not an issue.

No, the perpetuum mobile self-building starbase still exists. It now needs a BIT of work, instead of doing it all by itself as before the patch, but it's still horribly broken.

... and that's still too much spoiling, I guess.
(sorry for the edit)

Last edited by flekh; 08-25-2012 at 09:29 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 436
# 10
08-25-2012, 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
snip
I don't think you are seeing everything. Whether or not it was reverted, you would still NEED fleet marks, you would still need OTHER inputs, you would still NEED dilithium.

It is not a perpetual machine. You will continue to suffer an 84% loss in resources attempting to fuel your starbase solely by Fleet DOFFs any way you put it. It boils down to this - Fleet DOFF = 500 FCs = 500 dilithium, 10 Fleet marks, 4 Common Doffs, etc...

You get the following in return:
Old Code - 500 FCs ---> 1 Fleet DOFF ---> 75 dilithium or 150 FCs = 85% Loss of Dilithium or 70% loss of FCs

New Code - 2500 FCs ----> 5 Fleet DOFFs + 10 Dilithium ----> 1 Uncommon DOFF ----> 3 Common DOFFs -----> 450 FCs or 225 Dilithium = 91% loss of Dilithium or 82% loss of FCs.

This shows two things: 1) Yes I agree it did not fix the issue only slowed it down a little and created massive other issues, and 2) The "perpetual starbase Fleet DOFF machine" is an illusion, looking at the actual transfer rates shows clearly it is a net loss for each cycle.
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