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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 11
08-25-2012, 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodoreshrvk View Post
I don't think you are seeing everything. Whether or not it was reverted, you would still NEED fleet marks, you would still need OTHER inputs, you would still NEED dilithium.

It is not a perpetual machine. You will continue to suffer an 84% loss in resources attempting to fuel your starbase solely by Fleet DOFFs any way you put it. It boils down to this - Fleet DOFF = 500 FCs = 500 dilithium, 10 Fleet marks, 4 Common Doffs, etc...

You get the following in return:
Old Code - 500 FCs ---> 1 Fleet DOFF ---> 75 dilithium or 150 FCs = 85% Loss of Dilithium or 70% loss of FCs

New Code - 2500 FCs ----> 5 Fleet DOFFs + 10 Dilithium ----> 1 Uncommon DOFF ----> 3 Common DOFFs -----> 450 FCs or 225 Dilithium = 91% loss of Dilithium or 82% loss of FCs.

This shows two things: 1) Yes I agree it did not fix the issue only slowed it down a little and created massive other issues, and 2) The "perpetual starbase Fleet DOFF machine" is an illusion, looking at the actual transfer rates shows clearly it is a net loss for each cycle.
This ^^^^

But you might as well stop talking sense. Diogene isn't interested in hearing it. He already told us on another thread he was railing against the fleet doffs because a.) he thought it was fun and b.) because it was bound to screw up his ability to doff farm the personnel officer and then take advantage of the crazily inflated Doff exchange prices.

Facts don't matter. It all boils down to self interest.

As your math shows, the net difference in resources lost between the two methods is almost identical. The real problem for people who argue that the Fleet Doffs were evil is that the they won't be able to sell common secuirty doffs for 500K on the exchange anymore.

Last edited by boglejam73; 08-25-2012 at 01:37 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 445
# 12
08-25-2012, 02:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boglejam73 View Post
This ^^^^

But you might as well stop talking sense. Diogene isn't interested in hearing it. He already told us on another thread he was railing against the fleet doffs because a.) he thought it was fun and b.) because it was bound to screw up his ability to doff farm the personnel officer and then take advantage of the crazily inflated Doff exchange prices.

Facts don't matter. It all boils down to self interest.

As your math shows, the net difference in resources lost between the two methods is almost identical. The real problem for people who argue that the Fleet Doffs were evil is that the they won't be able to sell common secuirty doffs for 500K on the exchange anymore.
Thanks. But I really don't think a retort can be made for showing the underlying losses. I totally agree, the two code systems have nearly the same effect (the update is a little harsher) and it begs the question why this was done in the first place when there is so little difference. Especially now with the exchange issues...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
# 13
08-25-2012, 02:15 PM
fleet credits are the new gold pressed latinum.

so very useless except for a couple cheep things.

maybe if fleet ship modules were an insane price....

1million fleet credits per module? something expensive and useful....
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 168
Tired of the grind & dump mentality Cryptic / PWE have... It's not particularly Star Trek-y...

I'd much prefer the S/B building system were about actual DOFF missions. Y'know a way to USE your DOFFs for the benefit of your fleet. As opposed to simply kill kill killing your DOFFs??

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=330751

Basically, in my opinion this suggestion would make it so you're actually trying to BETTER your doffs rather than simply fattening DOFFs for the slaughter. And in the process your DOFFs will become og higher quality and you'll actually get better at DOING your own DOFF missions.

Currently there's still an unnecessary tension between "do I help myself" and "do I help my fleet." I'd rather that the two were synonymous. By helping yourself, you in turn help your fleet by coming up with a better DOFF pool with which to do Fleet DOFF missions...

Just my repeated 2c worth...

Agree, disagree, see the other thread & offer your opinion. Lots of good ideas floating around over there already...

~MG
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 168
# 15
08-25-2012, 04:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716maikai View Post
fleet credits are the new gold pressed latinum.

so very useless except for a couple cheep things.

maybe if fleet ship modules were an insane price....

1million fleet credits per module? something expensive and useful....
GPL, Lobi, dilithium, fleet marks, EDCs, salvage, prototype tech, data samples, particle traces, unreplicatable materials, provisions & such. What happened to getting away from 100 in-game currencies?? FAIL.

~MG
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 16
08-27-2012, 05:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boglejam73 View Post
Facts don't matter. It all boils down to self interest.
I suggest you stop mindless ad hominem attacks.

---

Another real example of system breaking issues in this thread, where the OP says "I only bought 500 Fleet DOFFs".
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 447
# 17
08-27-2012, 07:21 AM
It's not about self-interest.

The OP is phrased as a personal narrative but what it describes is impossible for reasons that have already been fully explained which is that FCs are the product of a grind and it is therefore impossible to spawn tens of thousands of doffs out of thin air.

In fact, even if FCs were a non-issue, the sheer manual difficulty of working with such vast numbers of doffs, that must be purchased and opened one by one, plus the caps on XC listings and doff roster, would make such an endeavor impossibly time-consuming.

If Dio's criticism were legitimate it would be either truthful or at least a lie consistent with some rational self-interest.

What he describes is fiction. And the only apparent reason for said fiction is to back up PWE's decision to bork the system to encourage people to buy more Zpoints and doffpacks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
Another real example of system breaking issues in this thread, where the OP says "I only bought 500 Fleet DOFFs".
500 fleet doffs is greater than the entire max size roster and grinds out to a little under four (yes, four) purple officers.

Conversely, it's easy enough to produce 500 white doffs from twenty purple doffs, which are guranteed from the Tholian packs. In fact it is easier to do so because given the roster cap and dil cost, and the consequent fact that breaking is always dil-positive and grinding is always dil-negative, it is much easier to break than grind in such vast numbers.

What this guy is doing here is establishing a red herring: that the purchase of 500 fleet doffs is somehow overpowered when in reality it is extremely underpowered compared to other options available to players.

Last edited by aestu; 08-27-2012 at 07:26 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 18
08-27-2012, 07:49 AM
That's not fiction, I made 100 white doffs in roughly 7-8 minutes yesterday. That's enough make significant progresses in any project. What you don't get is that since the projects are time-gated, you don't need to make these 10k doffs at once, you only need some roster slots and other people using their fleet credits in the same way. For a small fleet, it's easy to make 1000 doffs a day with this system. No need to make hundreds of transwarps between SFA and the starbase, you only need to do it once a day, and that's clearly enough to complete all your current projects.

I don't intend to give a howto but it's pretty easy and doable.

Last edited by diogene0; 08-27-2012 at 07:51 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 447
# 19
08-27-2012, 08:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
That's not fiction, I made 100 white doffs in roughly 7-8 minutes yesterday. That's enough make significant progresses in any project. What you don't get is that since the projects are time-gated, you don't need to make these 10k doffs at once, you only need some roster slots and other people using their fleet credits in the same way. For a small fleet, it's easy to make 1000 doffs a day with this system. No need to make hundreds of transwarps between SFA and the starbase, you only need to do it once a day, and that's clearly enough to complete all your current projects.
1. 100 doffs =/= 10k+ doffs
2. FMs are necessary and require player time input
3. 100 white doffs are equivalent to less than four purple doffs and selling the more desirable commons will cover the cost of the initial investment
4. 100 doffs costs 50,000 FC and given the nominal cost of FC there is no way to make a net profit on that transaction (as opposed to #3)
5. 1000 doffs is at least twice the max roster (closer to 3-4 times with even marginal roster usage) so your claim this requires an xwarp only "once per day" is a blatant falsehood.

If in the case of #5 you are assuming division and specialization of labor, with, say, six doffers each producing 150 doffs a day (on one xwarp, with 250/400 base roster size), and six more FAers producing fleet marks, you are describing a medium sized guild whose members are spending about an hour a day, every day, playing this game, and given spawn rates on security and engineering doffs (sub-10%) they are probably not even producing enough doffs to keep projects continually queued.

The model you outline also assumes that the doffers are allowed a monopoly on cheap FCs so they can keep buying doffs to feed back into the system. Even if all other issues with the scenario you outline were waived, the fleet would still have to deal with the exorbitant Dil cost of maintaining the pacing you describe.

The issues you describe could be understood only as issues if the intent were to make the game so insanely grindy that small/medium fleets would have to either play more than one hour a day per member or spend several days or more per project. Your argument is not cogent and can be understood only as PWE apologism.

Last edited by aestu; 08-27-2012 at 08:20 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 20
08-27-2012, 09:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aestu View Post
It's not about self-interest.
I really think it is. I don't think he is a PWE plant, really.

His sole and only concern seems to be that he doesn't want his time grinding Doffs for exchange profit to be invalidated by fleet people spending their time grinding for fleet marks and then buying fleet Doffs.

A PWE plant/apologist wouldn't really care what you spend time grinding, would he?
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