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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 21
08-27-2012, 09:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aestu View Post
1. 100 doffs =/= 10k+ doffs
2. FMs are necessary and require player time input
3. 100 white doffs are equivalent to less than four purple doffs and selling the more desirable commons will cover the cost of the initial investment
4. 100 doffs costs 50,000 FC and given the nominal cost of FC there is no way to make a net profit on that transaction (as opposed to #3)
5. 1000 doffs is at least twice the max roster (closer to 3-4 times with even marginal roster usage) so your claim this requires an xwarp only "once per day" is a blatant falsehood.

If in the case of #5 you are assuming division and specialization of labor, with, say, six doffers each producing 150 doffs a day (on one xwarp, with 250/400 base roster size), and six more FAers producing fleet marks, you are describing a medium sized guild whose members are spending about an hour a day, every day, playing this game, and given spawn rates on security and engineering doffs (sub-10%) they are probably not even producing enough doffs to keep projects continually queued.

The model you outline also assumes that the doffers are allowed a monopoly on cheap FCs so they can keep buying doffs to feed back into the system. Even if all other issues with the scenario you outline were waived, the fleet would still have to deal with the exorbitant Dil cost of maintaining the pacing you describe.

The issues you describe could be understood only as issues if the intent were to make the game so insanely grindy that small/medium fleets would have to either play more than one hour a day per member or spend several days or more per project. Your argument is not cogent and can be understood only as PWE apologism.
If you read carefully the opening post, you'll see that there is no need to farm to get these 10k doffs. We already have the ressources, and our starbase isn't even T2! 10k doffs will clearly be enough for T3 and a part of T4, considering the amount of doffs T3 assignments require. So we only need to play a few more minutes, maybe a starbase incursion, a colony invasion and a STF or two for some dil, and the road to T5 is widely open. Our small 10 active player fleet will match the biggest fleets in game without ANY effort or challenge.

This fleet doff system can also be replaced by a 'instant starbase upgrade' option, that would make no difference. And I know you're defending the fleet doff system because you know it and that's what you want.

Last edited by diogene0; 08-27-2012 at 09:20 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 447
# 22
08-27-2012, 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
If you read carefully the opening post, you'll see that there is no need to farm to get these 10k doffs. We already have the ressources, and our starbase isn't even T2! 10k doffs will clearly be enough for T3 and a part of T4, considering the amount of doffs T3 assignments require. So we only need to play a few more minutes, maybe a starbase incursion, a colony invasion and a STF or two for some dil, and the road to T5 is widely open. Our small 10 active player fleet will match the biggest fleets in game without ANY effort or challenge.

This fleet doff system can also be replaced by a 'instant starbase upgrade' option, that would make no difference. And I know you're defending the fleet doff system because you know it and that's what you want.
You are trying to derail the thread by strawmaning and being deliberately offensive because it is extremely clear that I as a player am motivated largely by challenge and that is why I am a completionist and seek and do the most difficult content.

You cited the 10k figure, not I. You're arguing in circles by making allegations then claiming your own allegations are irrelevant. How the heck do you store 10k doffs, anyway? For that matter, what are you going to do with them all now that they're useless?

A "SB incursion, colony invasion and STF or two" are....way more than a few more minutes. Like, about 90m. I can't imagine what normal person or what sort of schedule said person would have to say 90m a day is "a few minutes". Especially given that given the overall quality and prominence and general pacing of STO it is the main amusement for very few people.

Never mind that all those activities you describe wouldn't provide anywhere near the volume of dil you'd need for 12 players to reach T3 in this short timeframe. Either your 12-man group is farming on multiple chars for long periods each day or spending very large amounts of cash.

In short, no legitimate player would say the things you're saying because your assertions about time and resources are unreal and at odds with the game experience.

Last edited by aestu; 08-27-2012 at 12:44 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 441
# 23
08-27-2012, 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
If you read carefully the opening post, you'll see that there is no need to farm to get these 10k doffs. We already have the ressources, and our starbase isn't even T2! 10k doffs will clearly be enough for T3 and a part of T4, considering the amount of doffs T3 assignments require. So we only need to play a few more minutes, maybe a starbase incursion, a colony invasion and a STF or two for some dil, and the road to T5 is widely open. Our small 10 active player fleet will match the biggest fleets in game without ANY effort or challenge.

This fleet doff system can also be replaced by a 'instant starbase upgrade' option, that would make no difference. And I know you're defending the fleet doff system because you know it and that's what you want.
Your model is seriously flawed though. There is no perpetual motion of Starbase progression from solely "grinding" Fleet DOFFs. The 10k doffs may very well get you through Tier 2 but you need a suite of other inputs that you are missing. The method of attempting this garners a severe resource loss. That in itself should illustrate to you there is no exploit.

Let's take your 10,000 common DOFFs and look at how you could have arrived at obtaining them.

10,000 Common DOFFs = 5,000,000 Fleect Credits (500*10,000)
  • If you burned them all for dilithium you would get:
  • 750,000 dilithium (10,000 * 75) and 100,000 CXP.
  • 750,000 FCs from Dilithium after 93.75 refinement days/character
  • 750 -1,000 Fleet Marks from CXP after 80 hours of DOFF
  • Those Fleet Marks give you = 37,500-50,000 FCs
  • Total FC are 787,500 - 800,000
  • You can repurchase 1,575-1,600 Fleet DOFFs
  • 83.0% - 84.3% loss in resources.

That means on the next cycle you could buy 1,575 - 1600 DOFFs

If you "laundered" them Converting to green then back-converting the situation is slightly worse:
  • Upconvert them to Uncommons:
  • -20,000 dilithium + 2,000 Uncommon DOFFs + 50,000 CXP
  • Turning them back to commons you get: 6,000 Common DOFFs + 100,000 CXP
  • Burning them for dilithium = 450,000 dilithium at 56.25 refinement days/character
  • This gives you 450,000 - 20,000 = 430,000 FCs
  • 150,000 CXP = 1,125-1,500 Fleet Marks from CXP after 120 hours of DOFF Missions
  • Those Fleet Marks give you =56,250-75000 FCs
  • Total FC are 486,250 - 505,000
  • You can purchase 972-1,010 Fleet DOFFs
  • 89.9% - 90.3% loss in resources.

Here are the main points where your argument falls apart:
  • You need to get the inputs somewhere to obtain the original 5,000,000 Fleet Credits
  • You suffer a drastic time penalty with both Dilithium Refinement (on the order of months) and DOFF CXP-FM missions (on the order of a week or two).
  • You suffer a drastic loss in resources 94.0% - 90.3%
  • Thus, the second iteration of the cycle will occur months away (Dilithium Refinement) and result in even less resources.
  • The process with peter out after three cycles
  • You will need to work hard in game again to accrue another 5,000,000 FCs
  • You are not accounting for the sometimes doubling or triple of resource inputs for each increasing Tier of starbase projects

Either way, the use of Fleet DOFFs could supplement the Fleet Starbase System, but farming them alone cannot break or send the system into a state of perpetual motion.

Last edited by commodoreshrvk; 08-27-2012 at 02:11 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 134
# 24
08-27-2012, 12:46 PM
I don't think this works quite as well as the OP suggests. I ran a sample and got the following results.

I purchased 50 Common DOFFs from the Fleet vendor. Cost 25,000 Fleet Credits
I converted those 50 Common DOFF's to 10 Green Doffs, Resulting 250 Recruiting CXP.
I then downgraded those 10 Greens into 30 Commons, Resulting in 150 Recruiting CXP
I will eventually contribute those 30 commons to the Starbase for 3750 Fleet Credits

Net Gains:
Recruitment CXP: 400
Fleet Credits: -21,250

At that exchange rate, I need to spend 531,250 Fleet Credits to get 10,000 Recruitment CXP

So:

531,250 Fleet Credits = 10,000 Recruitment CXP = 75 Fleet Marks = 750 White DOFF's
"Once more unto the breech..."

Rogue Shipyard Blog
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 25
08-27-2012, 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarkean View Post
I don't think this works quite as well as the OP suggests. I ran a sample and got the following results.

I purchased 50 Common DOFFs from the Fleet vendor. Cost 25,000 Fleet Credits
I converted those 50 Common DOFF's to 10 Green Doffs, Resulting 250 Recruiting CXP.
I then downgraded those 10 Greens into 30 Commons, Resulting in 150 Recruiting CXP
I will eventually contribute those 30 commons to the Starbase for 3750 Fleet Credits

Net Gains:
Recruitment CXP: 400
Fleet Credits: -21,250

At that exchange rate, I need to spend 531,250 Fleet Credits to get 10,000 Recruitment CXP

So:

531,250 Fleet Credits = 10,000 Recruitment CXP = 75 Fleet Marks = 750 White DOFF's
and that assumes that all 30 of your doffs are actually useful to the fleet project, which they won't be....
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 26
08-27-2012, 01:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodoreshrvk View Post
The Real Issue Is Why Have People Already Banked 500k Fleet Credits? I Had Over A Million. The Price Of The Doffs Is Not The Issue, The Lack Of Things To Buy With Fleet Credits Is. The Fleet System Has Become A Great Resource Sink For Everything But...fleet Credits.

ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

Y U No Buy 5 Ships?!?!


:p

(I'm kidding, I agree with your assessment.)

Last edited by ussultimatum; 08-27-2012 at 01:14 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 447
# 27
08-27-2012, 01:41 PM
Actually, the OP is half right.

You can turn the fleet doff system into a perpetual motion machine...but as the other posters noted, inputs are necessary to do so. So, it's not really perpetual motion at all.

The input that makes the fleet doff system + dofftwister look like perpetual motion is other players' EC through the exchange. Buy fleet doffs, sell the tacs, engineers and some specialists such as sensor officers (lol) and grav scientists, grind up the rest, sell the high-demand greens (e.g., traders, diplomats and some tacs and engineers), break the rest back down, then repeat the process, disbanding enough doffs to yield dil to keep the entire cycle going. I did this, actually, to power our SB through to T2.

In the doff market prepatch, this yielded enough EC profit to pay for the other inputs. However, it's not sustainable, because eventually market forces would balance things out. It's also hugely time consuming; players paying EC for doffs produced through dofftwisting is really a case of money = time. Which is why we made it only to T2 before the change.

What enables this racket is not the supply of fleet doffs but fundamental imbalances in the system (unequal spawn rates of different doff professions and totally arbitrary demand for different rarities and professions) as well as barriers to market forces (the poor quality of the UI and the excessively low XC auction cap). Most viable markets also have transaction cost to prevent these sorts of rackets (STO is the only market, real or virtual, that I have ever seen, with no cost to list items nor an AH cut, and this enables predatory behavior and racketeering).

It's possible that what really might be going on here is the OP relating the devs' flawed understanding of the player response to their own system. What they think, or claim, is a perpetual motion machine, is really a racket powered by the inefficiencies of the fleet doff system, enabling some players to pay for others' time doing something that shouldn't be necessary in the first place.

If the doff devs are reading this (probably), the solution to this mess is:
1) Add transaction cost to the XC and doffbreaker.
2) Normalize doff spawn across the six professions, then normalize doff spawn for each specialization within the professions.
3) Normalize doff specialization utility within the fleet doff system.
4a) Add more FC sinks (e.g., reduce the CD on fleet assets and make the CD individual not shared).
4b) Add inputs for special fleet projects that enable the purchase of expensive and powerful player assets obtained from advanced objectives in fleet actions (e.g., No-Win Wave 10 now drops a token or something that can be used to open an elite req store).
5) Fix the XC mechanics so they no longer server as a barrier to entry to the market and thereby facilitate rackets (if you guys cant figure out how to do it then bite the bullet and hire people who can).

As for the fleet doffs - the center of this controversy?

Add a doff pool, maybe a jacuzzi and mud pit as well.
I know my fleet really wishes we could dump our fleet doffs and entertainment holograms in a pool accessible to the guild as a whole, to make donations, collaboration and guild bonding easier. To prevent excessive collective doff micromanagement and sharing from deflating demand, perhaps add a cooldown on adding or removing personal non-fleet doffs from the doff pool, or some sort of reassignment cost, like 10/50/100/250 FC per add/withdraw operation depending on rarity. Fleet doffs should be bound to that pool. After all, it only makes sense.

Again, however, this will take programming expertise the STO team may not have. And I doubt they'd be into such a radical idea that doesn't have an immediate $$$ angle. /shrug
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 28
08-27-2012, 05:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarkean View Post
I don't think this works quite as well as the OP suggests. I ran a sample and got the following results.

I purchased 50 Common DOFFs from the Fleet vendor. Cost 25,000 Fleet Credits
I converted those 50 Common DOFF's to 10 Green Doffs, Resulting 250 Recruiting CXP.
I then downgraded those 10 Greens into 30 Commons, Resulting in 150 Recruiting CXP
I will eventually contribute those 30 commons to the Starbase for 3750 Fleet Credits

Net Gains:
Recruitment CXP: 400
Fleet Credits: -21,250

At that exchange rate, I need to spend 531,250 Fleet Credits to get 10,000 Recruitment CXP

So:

531,250 Fleet Credits = 10,000 Recruitment CXP = 75 Fleet Marks = 750 White DOFF's
The point of this thread is that you got 30 common doffs without any effort or challenge, without doffing; you spent a useless and almost unlimited ressource (unlimited if you play smart). 30 doffs are a week at starfleet academy or 10 minutes and a lot of clicks and waiting time of doffing for a doffer, after several months of upgrades to your roster. You made them out of nothing, this isn't good for the balances in this game.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,173
# 29
08-27-2012, 05:27 PM
Wow. All I can say to the OP is "Math is hard."
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 30
08-27-2012, 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by badname834854 View Post
Wow. All I can say to the OP is "Math is hard."
We've been saying that to him since Thursday - he isn't getting it. And since he considers fleet marks to be an "almost unlimited resource" all I can come up with is his time must not be worth anything.

He apparently likes to wait for the timer to go off on a Doff recruitment mission. Others like to spend time grinding fleet marks to convert to credits to buy Doffs. Either way you get them, they are time gated.
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