Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,444
# 21
09-02-2012, 10:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post

You can say their separate realities to justify the mess but its not the case, the last Star Trek movie is supposed to be about to how Kirk became Captain of the Enterprise not some alternate reality and it can't be an alternate reality anyway cause you have the Spok we know as well as the new one so it has directly got to do with temporal time travel.

If you have ever seen the original pilot episode of the original Star Trek with Captain Pike you would see how hypercritical the whole Star Trek story line has become and there is another Episode with Kirk returning Pike to the planet it all started with but the new movie completely wrecked that whole story.
The words "alternate reality" are used IN THE FILM.

Spock chased Nero back in time. They landed in an alternate reality that was changed because of Nero destroying the Kelvin. The theory is that going back in time CREATES alternate universes.

From there, it's the story of how an alternate Kirk comes to command an alternate Enterprise.

And our Spock is there because it's HIS black hole that created the alternate reality by sending Nero to change history. And the running conceit of the movie is that changing history creates alternate universes. (Which is one scientific guess about how real time travel would work. It's not USUALLY how time travel works in Star Trek but a lot of sci-fi suggests that your method of time travel determines how the rules work, including whether you can alter your own past or whether any attempt to do so creates an alternate reality.)
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 22
09-02-2012, 10:08 PM
Also: In STO, Vulcan is fine, Romulus is destroyed. In the JJverse, Romulus is fine and Vulcan is destroyed.

Two universes. The JJverse was created by Spock and Nero, who are from our universe but wound up creating that one. Their universe has a Romulus and no Vulcan. The Prime Universe has a Vulcan and no Romulus.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 855
# 23
09-02-2012, 10:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post
Your forgetting about the character Whoopie Goldberg (don't know don't care if thats the correct spelling for he name) played in the next gen, Her entire race was wiped out by the Borg with a history and all.
Since you started your post by being utterly disrespectful and uncaring, I suppose i'll have to follow in kind. The correct spelling FYI, is "Whoopi Goldberg", Mr Risabove. Don't suppose you'd like it if people purposely called you by the wrong name? I'm sure Mr Burton wasn't too thrilled to be called "Laverne" on the ST: Nemesis set, by it's director.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post
The problem I have with a Borg episode in Archers time is the tech level between then and when Q re-introduced the Federation to the Borg, they would have had borg tech to fight them with. You can't tell me Starfleet would have just left the borg stuff and never poked at it as that just does not fit into Starfleets profile.
You fail to take into account, the impact of having Borg in the 22nd Century (caused by Picard leaving wreckage/bodies on Earth in 2063). In the original timeline, the Borg weren't even present in the 22nd Century (as far as we know). There would be no tech to study, no tech to prepare for, and no fore-knowledge of the Borg, other than "rumor and speculations".

During TNG, Season 1's "The Neutral Zone" and Season 3's "Best of Both Worlds" are very much part of the same storyline. The Enterprise is sent to investigate a planet (in the latter episode), and it's confirmed that the destruction is the "same as what was seen in The Neutral Zone". The Borg were present near Federation space as early as the end of Season 1. Half a season later, in "Q Who?", the character of Q sends the Enterprise flying 8500 lightyears, directly into the path of a Borg Cube. It's assumed later on that the Cube in Best of Both Worlds, is the same cube as in Q Who?. One could always speculate, why were the Borg already on a direct path towards the Alpha Quadrant, when Q sent the Enterprise flying? Did Q possibly have fore-knowledge of what Humanity should expect to face? Did Q try to warn Picard and the rest of humanity? We know from Q's own statements, that the "Continuum" fears what Humanity might one day become. A race possibly more powerful than the Continuum itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post
You can say their separate realities to justify the mess but its not the case, the last Star Trek movie is supposed to be about to how Kirk became Captain of the Enterprise not some alternate reality and it can't be an alternate reality anyway cause you have the Spok we know as well as the new one so it has directly got to do with temporal time travel.
Stated and quoted in the movie as being an "Alternate Reality" caused by Nero's influence on the timeline and the destruction of the USS Kelvin. I understand you hated the movie, but atleast try and back up your claims with same actual FACTS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post
If you have ever seen the original pilot episode of the original Star Trek with Captain Pike you would see how hypercritical the whole Star Trek story line has become and there is another Episode with Kirk returning Pike to the planet it all started with but the new movie completely wrecked that whole story.
This goes back to my previous paragraph. The 2009 movie takes place in an "Alternate Reality", and thus anything that happens in that timeline, has absolutely NO BEARING on the events of the "Prime Universe" that is TOS and beyond.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
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# 24
09-02-2012, 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
Also: In STO, Vulcan is fine, Romulus is destroyed. In the JJverse, Romulus is fine and Vulcan is destroyed.

Two universes. The JJverse was created by Spock and Nero, who are from our universe but wound up creating that one. Their universe has a Romulus and no Vulcan. The Prime Universe has a Vulcan and no Romulus.
Actually we don't know if the Hobus supernova destroys Romulus or not in that reality yet. For all we know, Romulus still gets destroyed in the 2380s.
Demons run when a good man goes to war.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 855
# 25
09-02-2012, 10:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by velktra View Post
Actually we don't know if the Hobus supernova destroys Romulus or not in that reality yet. For all we know, Romulus still gets destroyed in the 2380s.
A fair assumption. Given that the events of the 2009 movies takes place 150 years pre-STO. We have no idea whatsoever what that universe might look like in 2409 compared to STO's 2409.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 26
09-02-2012, 11:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by meurik View Post
Since you started your post by being utterly disrespectful and uncaring, I suppose i'll have to follow in kind. The correct spelling FYI, is "Whoopi Goldberg", Mr Risabove. Don't suppose you'd like it if people purposely called you by the wrong name? I'm sure Mr Burton wasn't too thrilled to be called "Laverne" on the ST: Nemesis set, by it's director.
Well I apologies for not knowing how to spell an actors name, big deal. The point was there is a History with the Borg pre voyager.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meurik View Post
You fail to take into account, the impact of having Borg in the 22nd Century (caused by Picard leaving wreckage/bodies on Earth in 2063). In the original timeline, the Borg weren't even present in the 22nd Century (as far as we know). There would be no tech to study, no tech to prepare for, and no fore-knowledge of the Borg, other than "rumor and speculations".

During TNG, Season 1's "The Neutral Zone" and Season 3's "Best of Both Worlds" are very much part of the same storyline. The Enterprise is sent to investigate a planet (in the latter episode), and it's confirmed that the destruction is the "same as what was seen in The Neutral Zone". The Borg were present near Federation space as early as the end of Season 1. Half a season later, in "Q Who?", the character of Q sends the Enterprise flying 8500 lightyears, directly into the path of a Borg Cube. It's assumed later on that the Cube in Best of Both Worlds, is the same cube as in Q Who?. One could always speculate, why were the Borg already on a direct path towards the Alpha Quadrant, when Q sent the Enterprise flying? Did Q possibly have fore-knowledge of what Humanity should expect to face? Did Q try to warn Picard and the rest of humanity? We know from Q's own statements, that the "Continuum" fears what Humanity might one day become. A race possibly more powerful than the Continuum itself.
You just don't get it, look by putting the Borg into Archers Time line (yes we know they where there given what happened in the next gen series and movies) Starfleet would have what had a couple of hundred yrs to study the Borg tech and integrate it into their own but they didn't because its not apart of the original next gen story so it stuff's it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meurik View Post
Stated and quoted in the movie as being an "Alternate Reality" caused by Nero's influence on the timeline and the destruction of the USS Kelvin. I understand you hated the movie, but atleast try and back up your claims with same actual FACTS.

This goes back to my previous paragraph. The 2009 movie takes place in an "Alternate Reality", and thus anything that happens in that timeline, has absolutely NO BEARING on the events of the "Prime Universe" that is TOS and beyond.
I didn't say I hated the movie I just said I don't like how it stuffs the whole Star Trek theme I don't care that you and others try and justify it as an alternative reality.

I have it in my collection, I have all of Star Trek bar the Originals.

This is my opinion you can argue till your blue in the face it ain't gonna change lol, call me ignorant and all the names under the sun its still not going to change my opinion OK!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 855
# 27
09-03-2012, 12:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post
This is my opinion you can argue till your blue in the face it ain't gonna change lol, call me ignorant and all the names under the sun its still not going to change my opinion OK!
Thank you, I will.

You ARE ignorant. Ignorant of the fact that the 2009 movie specifically said that the events in the period between 2233-2258 takes place in an Alternate Reality. They said it in the movie. That's not an opinion. That's FACT.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,444
# 28
09-03-2012, 12:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post
Well I apologies for not knowing how to spell an actors name, big deal. The point was there is a History with the Borg pre voyager.



You just don't get it, look by putting the Borg into Archers Time line (yes we know they where there given what happened in the next gen series and movies) Starfleet would have what had a couple of hundred yrs to study the Borg tech and integrate it into their own but they didn't because its not apart of the original next gen story so it stuff's it.



I didn't say I hated the movie I just said I don't like how it stuffs the whole Star Trek theme I don't care that you and others try and justify it as an alternative reality.

I have it in my collection, I have all of Star Trek bar the Originals.

This is my opinion you can argue till your blue in the face it ain't gonna change lol, call me ignorant and all the names under the sun its still not going to change my opinion OK!
It's not a fan justification. It's stated in the movie that it's an alternate reality.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,459
# 29
09-03-2012, 01:33 AM
I actually liked Scott Bakula as a captain, yet the whole series was just plain bad.

The premise seemed okay, but they had the same problems as STO has: They had to put everything in there we already know from other ST-installments, wether it made sense or not instead of developing a unique storyline with less fleshed-out elements of the universe. Oh, plus it became really dull 9/11 propaganda at the end
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Lieutenant
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Posts: 86
# 30
09-03-2012, 01:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post
Your forgetting about the character Whoopie Goldberg (don't know don't care if thats the correct spelling for he name) played in the next gen, Her entire race was wiped out by the Borg with a history and all.
Where exactly the El-Aurian homeworld is located is unknown, just that it's 'several thousand lightyears' away from Federation space. Many El-Aurians travelled, as Guinan was on Earth in 1893, those that were at their home system were all assimilated or killed. Most, if not all of what Guinan knew of the Borg is what she would have heard from others, and at least some of it was wrong by the time the Federation met the Borg. After all, she thought that if the Federation was ready, they might have been able to establish a relationship with the Borg. The Borg still obviously wasn't a subject she was eager to talk about, given that she never once mentioned them to Picard until the events of Q Who.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post
The problem I have with a Borg episode in Archers time is the tech level between then and when Q re-introduced the Federation to the Borg, they would have had borg tech to fight them with. You can't tell me Starfleet would have just left the borg stuff and never poked at it as that just does not fit into Starfleets profile.
Starfleet probably did poke at it. But the records were sealed, and only a few would have known about it. There's also only so much that you can learn from wreckage.

When one of the latest aircraft gets shot down or crashes, the owning government typically sends another ground attack fighter or a bomber to destroy the wreckage to prevent anyone else from learning very much from it, and it's pretty effective. Now that's humans trying to study the wreckage of human technology destroyed with a bomb, and that's extremely difficult. In the case of the destroyed partially assimilated ship, we're talking about humans trying to study the destroyed wreckage of 24th century alien technology from numerous distinct sources destroyed by far more powerful weapons, not to mention the antimatter containment failure. How much exactly do you think will be left to study?

Borg vessels are further designed so that when the ship is cricitally damaged, all vital technology self-destructs. At the end of Best of Both Worlds, the Borg cube self-destructs above Earth after it gets shut down, leaving very little, if anything for the Federation to study. Even after just trying to disable a Borg Probe, the salavagable wreckage from it only littered the floor of a single cargo bay on Voyager. Part of the sphere surviving relatively well like that would likely be extremely rare, and be simply because part of that self-destruct process failed. If the Enterprise-E even suspected that it might of survived, then they would have retrieved the wreckage themselves to both prevent contamination of the timeline, and because it would be a rare opportunity to study relatively intact Borg technology.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post
You can say their separate realities to justify the mess but its not the case, the last Star Trek movie is supposed to be about to how Kirk became Captain of the Enterprise not some alternate reality and it can't be an alternate reality anyway cause you have the Spok we know as well as the new one so it has directly got to do with temporal time travel.
Because Spock can't go to another dimension? Jumping dimensions isn't anything new for Star Trek, just they're normally mirror universes, while the JJverse is a little different. But then, the method of reaching it was rather different as well. The interaction between the nova and the red matter singularity allowed them to shift through dimensions and time. It's not the first time the pair of those have occurred either. The mirror universe Tholians in 2063 stole the USS Defiant from the prime universe in 2268 after all.

Incidentally, time travel is always going to be at least of the temporal variety. I'm not sure how you'd get non-temporal time travel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post
If you have ever seen the original pilot episode of the original Star Trek with Captain Pike you would see how hypercritical the whole Star Trek story line has become and there is another Episode with Kirk returning Pike to the planet it all started with but the new movie completely wrecked that whole story.
I think between what Meurik has said and what I've added on here, I think it about covers it. Everything says that the JJverse is an alternate universe, not a retelling of the prime universe events. I haven't seen a thing that even indicates that it's set in the prime universe.
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