Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,521
# 11
09-18-2012, 04:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
We've been looking into the complaints about Siphon Drones and trying to figure out a balanced way of decreasing their effectiveness without diminishing to the point of making them feel like a wasted hangar slot.

Honestly, it's not easy to find that balancing point.

We've considered reducing their hitpoints, which would make them more susceptible to AOE damage countermeasures. This, in essence, makes it easier to counter them, but only if you have the proper powers equipped, and are not currently on cooldown. However, it presents the very negative experience to the owner of having their drones quickly dispatched without them having the chance to do their thing.

We've also tried having their drain-per-tick be based off of a percentage of the target's current power, but that actually managed to make them more effective, rather than less. Any subsystem running at low power was barely effected, while high-power systems took a major pounding. We didn't feel that was intuitive. Also, it still took systems offline almost as quickly since the minimum it could drain per tick was still 1 energy (magnitude rounding) and the initial uptick of drain was faster.

I guess that's a long-winded way of saying, we're trying to find a solution to a mechanic that's not quite behaving the way we'd like it to in PvP, and haven't yet come across one that we like. But we'll keep looking.
the problem with drones is that their drain is open ended and unlimited, they don't drain a certain amount and then stop, its more and more every tic. this never ending drain till they are killed seems to bypass insulators entirely, as shown in a vid made by mav.

have the things explode after 15 seconds of draining, like a blood sucker that sucks to much. being able to permanently shut someone down once snared is a big problem

depending on your level in insulators, there should be a cap to how much any number of siphon pods should be able to drain you. with 0 insulator skill they should be able to take 125 power, with 99 max drain should be 50 power. from there add in diminishing returns, so even at a theoretical max of ~250 skill it could still drain 20 power.

the pods drain once a second right? maybe have them drain every 3 seconds, so if only 1 or 2 get to you it isn't game over and you can deal with them. it wont make much of a difference ether way when a squad of 8 has you.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 566
# 12
09-18-2012, 05:05 PM
I understand bort when he said its not easy, those suckers are also dependent on flow capacitors too, so as many flow points you have, the bigger the drain is. On the other hand, the principle is cool to be honest, it just doesn't work properly. also, they might be resisted by insulators, but the drain could be so big that it really doesn't matter how many insulators you have, lol.

I remember talking about having et or batteries giving you a temporary power boost, so you can at least escape them, I really don't know if that would be enough though. Another idea would be to make he clean them for the duration of he, it sounds silly, I know, but same he clears power siphon (sci ability). I am definitely against nerfing them to the point of being useless, but I think siphons have the problem of being dependent of too many variables and maybe it's just easier if cryptic implements the he/et/batt idea.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
# 13
09-18-2012, 05:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
We've been looking into the complaints about Siphon Drones and trying to figure out a balanced way of decreasing their effectiveness without diminishing to the point of making them feel like a wasted hangar slot.

Honestly, it's not easy to find that balancing point.

We've considered reducing their hitpoints, which would make them more susceptible to AOE damage countermeasures. This, in essence, makes it easier to counter them, but only if you have the proper powers equipped, and are not currently on cooldown. However, it presents the very negative experience to the owner of having their drones quickly dispatched without them having the chance to do their thing.

We've also tried having their drain-per-tick be based off of a percentage of the target's current power, but that actually managed to make them more effective, rather than less. Any subsystem running at low power was barely effected, while high-power systems took a major pounding. We didn't feel that was intuitive. Also, it still took systems offline almost as quickly since the minimum it could drain per tick was still 1 energy (magnitude rounding) and the initial uptick of drain was faster.

I guess that's a long-winded way of saying, we're trying to find a solution to a mechanic that's not quite behaving the way we'd like it to in PvP, and haven't yet come across one that we like. But we'll keep looking.
im gonna have to call bs on this.

theyre the only drain in the game that has unlimited drain. theyre one of the few drains that isnt countered fully by insulators or even a fraction of whats countered for things like target subsystems.

yeah... bs.

give them a limit to their drain. say max group drain of up to 50 total. theyd still be useful, and so long as theyre "draining" that 50 power wont regen. the more siphons the faster that 50 is drained.

power insulators would increase the amount of time it takes to drain up to the 50.

they also do need their health adjusted, but nowhere near as badly as the majority of the fed pets (only the fighters seem to be in order). i mena come on! a 18k health runabout with tractor beams? good god....
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 106
# 14
09-18-2012, 05:12 PM
I got an idea get rid of pvp and stop nerfing things because pvp minority whines about balance. I want my stuff to work in pve. just get rid of pvp or nerf only pvp leave my pve alone.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,521
# 15
09-18-2012, 05:13 PM
another problem with drains from the pods is that a high degree of specing into Starship Electro-Plasma Systems makes them drain from you faster. the higher your power transfer rate is the faster you regain energy, AND have it drained from you. insulators should help slow down this drain too.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,059
# 16
09-18-2012, 05:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by smazazel View Post
I got an idea get rid of pvp and stop nerfing things because pvp minority whines about balance. I want my stuff to work in pve. just get rid of pvp or nerf only pvp leave my pve alone.
your spacebar works in PVE.

there you go, fixed that for you.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 17
09-18-2012, 05:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by smazazel View Post
I got an idea get rid of pvp and stop nerfing things because pvp minority whines about balance. I want my stuff to work in pve. just get rid of pvp or nerf only pvp leave my pve alone.
Don't know what you're whining about. PVE is pretty effing easy to do. For the majority of it, you don't even need a good build. Right now, the only thing you need a halfway-decent build for are STFs, fleet alerts, and no-win.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 18
09-18-2012, 06:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deadspacex64 View Post
borticuscryptic, how about they can only drain x amount before they have to dissipate that gained energy? they would still be initially deadly...but there would be a brief recovery time for the target before a new launch or the drones could begin siphoning again.

and there are counters, they're just not real useful in other PvP engagements. mines for one...new anti-fighter mines with a faster cd than standard anti-ship mines could be an addition. the downside it takes a weapons slot and not as effective vs other ships.

tractor-repulsors could have an added bonus vs small ships, some other sci abilities work pretty well as long as you're not drained before hand. increasing launch cd or having a min cd that doff's can't force it below would also help with the spammage.

i think i realize the issue with finding a way to make them less uber in PvP is that it also makes them less effective in PvE...difficult balancing act to say the least.
Other MMO games have separate gear for PVP and PVE. How about this, why not make it like PVE gear only and not affective for PVP?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 19
09-18-2012, 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
the problem with drones is that their drain is open ended and unlimited, they don't drain a certain amount and then stop, its more and more every tic. this never ending drain till they are killed seems to bypass insulators entirely, as shown in a vid made by mav.

have the things explode after 15 seconds of draining, like a blood sucker that sucks to much. being able to permanently shut someone down once snared is a big problem

depending on your level in insulators, there should be a cap to how much any number of siphon pods should be able to drain you. with 0 insulator skill they should be able to take 125 power, with 99 max drain should be 50 power. from there add in diminishing returns, so even at a theoretical max of ~250 skill it could still drain 20 power.

the pods drain once a second right? maybe have them drain every 3 seconds, so if only 1 or 2 get to you it isn't game over and you can deal with them. it wont make much of a difference ether way when a squad of 8 has you.
That wouldn't make much of a difference if siphon player holds you in a powerful tractor beam, as most leach players do.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 20
09-18-2012, 06:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716maikai View Post
im gonna have to call bs on this.

theyre the only drain in the game that has unlimited drain. theyre one of the few drains that isnt countered fully by insulators or even a fraction of whats countered for things like target subsystems.

yeah... bs.

give them a limit to their drain. say max group drain of up to 50 total. theyd still be useful, and so long as theyre "draining" that 50 power wont regen. the more siphons the faster that 50 is drained.

power insulators would increase the amount of time it takes to drain up to the 50.

they also do need their health adjusted, but nowhere near as badly as the majority of the fed pets (only the fighters seem to be in order). i mena come on! a 18k health runabout with tractor beams? good god....
Not just the Fed pet need health adjustment, its the KDF frigates as well. They are as tough as players and they are too fast to hit with torpedos. The difference between Advanced fighters and regular should be a very small HP raise and the better weaponry. That also should go for a the advanced frigates.
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