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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 21
09-19-2012, 10:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
The Fleet Aquariuos basically just became the fed cheaper Bug ship with one less Tac console and a slight difference in Engi BOff slots, if it gets a 20 turnrate boost.
1 less tac console, 1 less rear weapon, less hull and if the original numbers from tribble are accurate much much less shielding.

Originally what it got in return for all of that compromise was...nothing with a turn rate of 16.

Now it has 1 less turn rate than a 120k dilithium / free RALH selection Hegh'ta without the fully customizable BOFF layout and no cloak.


It still costs 4 FSM modules and has simply improved from "laughably terrible" to just "comparatively poor".
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,239
# 22
09-19-2012, 12:40 PM
Well considering what happened to the C-Store ships outfits I bet the only reason the Aquarius was put in was because ... hey! they made a model and people did ask for it so why not make it a top of the line starship (despite being designed as a combat pet) since the combat pet had to be made functional as far a ship could go.

They did EXACTLY the same with the HoH'SuS, the Bortas Combat pet but since it was a BoP it was not that hard to come up with stats.

Neither should been T5 Fleet ships in the first place.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 23
09-19-2012, 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lianthelia View Post
Purple mk 11 console? What are you smoking...at best its a blue...since you know umm feds...they have a cloak console and its a scaling blue item.

I hardly consider 5 seconds of 15% damage once a fight equal to a permanent 20% bonus to energy weapons.
Yes but that cloak is only one fed escort. It uses up a console slot. Birds of Prey has it as an innate ability, is a battle cloak and has all universal stations.

5 seconds of boosted damage IS equal to permanent 20% damage if you take into account the RAIDER is an ambush ship. Decloak,shoot, recloak. You should not be engaging out of cloak. If you want to do that fly a Raptor. Its what they were designed to do.



Quote:
Originally Posted by drkfrontiers View Post
Also, argument didn't take into consideration that the Fleet Defiant can mount 5x XII Purple Tac consoles, and still get that added cloak bonus. So, in all fairness, the BOP is still gimpy at best.
You cannot compare the birds of prey to the federation escorts. BoP is an ambush ship (its why it has a battle cloak not a regular cloak like defiant) not a head-on combatant. The Defiant, like any other federation escort, is in-between the Bird of Prey and Raptor class ships.

If anything the fleet Q'in raptor is the KDF equivalent of the Fleet Defiant. One less tac console but one more engineering console. Both use regular cloaks not battle cloaks.
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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,753
# 24
09-19-2012, 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
1 less tac console, 1 less rear weapon, less hull and if the original numbers from tribble are accurate much much less shielding.

Originally what it got in return for all of that compromise was...nothing with a turn rate of 16.

Now it has 1 less turn rate than a 120k dilithium / free RALH selection Hegh'ta without the fully customizable BOFF layout and no cloak.


It still costs 4 FSM modules and has simply improved from "laughably terrible" to just "comparatively poor".
As I said
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe
The Fleet Aquariuos basically just became the fed cheaper Bug ship with one less Tac console and a slight difference in Engi BOff slots, if it gets a 20 turnrate boost.
1234
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 25
09-19-2012, 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lianthelia View Post
Purple mk 11 console? What are you smoking...at best its a blue...since you know umm feds...they have a cloak console and its a scaling blue item.

I hardly consider 5 seconds of 15% damage once a fight equal to a permanent 20% bonus to energy weapons.
A blue Mk XI tac console boosts by 26.2%. A 15% boost is a common Mk VII or uncommon mk VI console, according to the STO wiki (assuming that information is still accurate).

Basically, it's pisspoor. Combined with all the other buffs a tac officer can apply, it's better than nothing. . .but it does not compensate for being short a tac slot.

Attack Pattern Alpha, now THAT is a compensator. . .but you've gotta be a tac officer to have it. Even pattern Omega is better than the decloak damage bonus (25% for 15 seconds). Meanwhile, tac officers flying fed escorts will get a 5th tac console from the Fleet defiant, and can use Alpha for the equivalent of a 6th, and Omega for a 7th. I've been on the business end of an alpha strike from those beasts, they overwhelm the damn Tactical Team buff (even when supplemented by EPtS1). It's ridiculous. Only thing on my BoP that can stand up to 'em right now is RSP, which is limited. I don't have ROOM for more 'defensive' skills, not if I want my decloak-ambush Hegh'ta to remain relevant in the role I'm using it in.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 26
09-19-2012, 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
As I said

1234
You were wrong then, and you are still wrong.

Turn rate of 20 =/= Bugship.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,419
# 27
09-19-2012, 01:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingmaster View Post
A blue Mk XI tac console boosts by 26.2%. A 15% boost is a common Mk VII or uncommon mk VI console, according to the STO wiki (assuming that information is still accurate).

Basically, it's pisspoor. Combined with all the other buffs a tac officer can apply, it's better than nothing. . .but it does not compensate for being short a tac slot.

Attack Pattern Alpha, now THAT is a compensator. . .but you've gotta be a tac officer to have it. Even pattern Omega is better than the decloak damage bonus (25% for 15 seconds). Meanwhile, tac officers flying fed escorts will get a 5th tac console from the Fleet defiant, and can use Alpha for the equivalent of a 6th, and Omega for a 7th. I've been on the business end of an alpha strike from those beasts, they overwhelm the damn Tactical Team buff (even when supplemented by EPtS1). It's ridiculous. Only thing on my BoP that can stand up to 'em right now is RSP, which is limited. I don't have ROOM for more 'defensive' skills, not if I want my decloak-ambush Hegh'ta to remain relevant in the role I'm using it in.
you forgot to add in the fleet item that buffs all your tactical skills for 4 hours. yesterday a guy with a fleet defiant posted his with and without damage tool tip numbers, and they made a 9.8% difference, and it was only green quality. add that on top of all those other tactical buffs too!
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 28
09-19-2012, 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Yes but that cloak is only one fed escort. It uses up a console slot. Birds of Prey has it as an innate ability, is a battle cloak and has all universal stations.

5 seconds of boosted damage IS equal to permanent 20% damage if you take into account the RAIDER is an ambush ship. Decloak,shoot, recloak. You should not be engaging out of cloak. If you want to do that fly a Raptor. Its what they were designed to do.





You cannot compare the birds of prey to the federation escorts. BoP is an ambush ship (its why it has a battle cloak not a regular cloak like defiant) not a head-on combatant. The Defiant, like any other federation escort, is in-between the Bird of Prey and Raptor class ships.

If anything the fleet Q'in raptor is the KDF equivalent of the Fleet Defiant. One less tac console but one more engineering console. Both use regular cloaks not battle cloaks.
The battlecloak has a 20 second cooldown. That means you've got at least 10-12 seconds of fighting until it's safe to make a break for it using Evasive or w/e. The buff only lasts for 5 seconds. You're also not guaranteed to be able to escape after 10 seconds of fighting.

Also, the Defiant can ambush, and in the right hands can get out of the battlezone quickly to recloak and ambush again. Face it, the battlecloak is NOT that big of an advantage, especially since smart players know how to trap BoPs and keep them from escaping (warp plasma after they've used an HE to remove a previous warp plasma effect, tractor beams after you've seen them use Omega/Polarize Hull, etc). It enables a BoP to run away a little easier, that's about it. Buff the battlecloak to include a defense bonus when you cloak and a larger buff when decloaking, and maybe you've got a leg to stand on.

Add to that the lower amount of tac consoles, the cooldowns on Pattern Alpha, Pattern Omega, Fire on My Mark, Go Down Fighting, Tactical Fleet. . .and you can basically make an 'effective' ambush attack about every minute or so. Ambushing in a BoP without at least pattern alpha running is a waste of an ambush (at least, in my experience).

The universal stations on a BoP don't really mean as much as Federation fanboys would like to claim, because the BoP is a limited and substandard vessel in every category except turning. Right now, the B'rel has about 2 purposes. . .alpha ambush (which can be done by the Hegh'ta) and weird sci/mine/torp builds to harass and trip up the enemy. The Hegh'ta is only good as a nimble ambush/DPSer, so only a certain amount of boff setups are really viable. You can tank in the Hegh'ta (thanks to those universal Boff slots), but then you sacrifice DPS and the whole point of flying the darn thing. The Fleet Hoh'sus is an improvement, but it still struggles to keep up.

Someone clarify whether the Fleet Qin has the same borked turn axis as the regular Qin? If it does, then it does NOT measure up to the Fleet defiant, both because of the tac console and because of the turning. If it works alright, it's STILL deficient because the turn rate is STILL slower than the Fleet Defiant (15 compared to 17), and it's missing a tac console. It 'tanks' better, like any really cares. You wanna tank and be nimble, you fly the Fleet Tor'kaht (a very good battlecruiser, btw).
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