Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 101
09-19-2012, 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
Wrong.

The only ship that was classified as a Escort was the Defiant, none of the rest of the list were ever given a canon classification.


You are the one bring canon up, too bad for you DS9 hated technical terms with a passion and so the ILM ships were never given classifications.




Because its 2409, the Galaxy class dates back at least to 2364 (Encounter at Farpoint) meaning its a 45 years old design.

You are making the exact same argument about people that want their T5 connies, just because its "iconic" does not mean you utter ignore the timeline were it puts the Galaxy as a nearly half a century design.

And dont being up the Excelsior, they had reasons for it and the complain about that one comes from Sovereign fans that see it stealing the Sovereign thunder ... funny how you did not mentioned the Enterprise E.

And B'rel? dont bring Klingon designs since canon reused it so many times the whole thing is now excused as "Klingons refit their ships a lot".

You people and your flying museum, I am honestly sick and tired of it.
The Defiant was called many things, battleship, warship, escort. It's seems you don't read any material other than what you saw on the show. From your response, I can tell you never played any other Star Trek games, read Encyclopedia material, or the manuals.
You probably can't tell the difference in types of warships and what their duties are without looking it up online. You would know what those ships purposes were.

So, you can take your "Wrong" answer and shove it back in your mouth.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 102
09-19-2012, 06:21 PM
Don't worry about f2pdrakron. He is one of those haters who hate the canon ships from the shows, and probably was too young to apreciate them in the late 80's /90's showings. He will try to stump our fire but he doesn't realize that he is outnumbered on this thread. Theres is a stronger following for TNG show than those who in this game just to be in an MMO game.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,628
# 103
09-19-2012, 06:34 PM
<Edited>

I excuse myself of this discussion.

Last edited by f2pdrakron; 09-19-2012 at 06:59 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 216
# 104
09-19-2012, 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
Well there was the one near the begining of the war that was rammed by bug ships in the gamma quadrant. And while we never really saw any others explode, we did see a few heavily damaged during the first battle of chintoka, then there was the entire fleet destroyed by the breen at the second battle of chintoka which I'm sure contained galaxy class ships. Oh and the battle to retake ds9 where only the defiant broke through the dominion fleet, we can assume the galaxy's we saw there suffered some losses. There are also the countless other battles we never saw but we do know the war was going badly,which means the probable loss of galaxy class ships.
There are only 5 Galaxy Class starships ever destroyed. Including novels.

USS Asgard - The Asgard was destroyed at the Battle of Rashanar during the Dominion War. Even then this was not a complete destruction but rather a complete burnout by a Breen Thermal weapon that destroyed every system on the ship leaving it a floating husk waiting to be reclaimed. (TNG novel: A Time to Be Born)

USS Enterprise-D - I don't think I need to explain this one.

USS Monitor - In 2377, the Monitor fell victim to the Warden nanite virus. A rescue crew inadvertently triggered a Borg self destruct sequence. (ST video game: Away Team)

USS Odyssey - Destroyed in 2370. The Dominion war started in 2373 and ended in 2375.

USS Yamato - Destroyed by an Iconian Computer Virus. (TNG episode: "Contagion")

So even using non canon sources only one Galaxy Class was "destroyed" during the Dominion War.

Quote:
I also still maintain that the problem is not the ship its the available powers and the fact that most engineering powers share a cool down. If you equip an engineering oddy the same was as you equip your R with the same boff layout I'd bet you find it just as lacking.
In my own opinion. It is neither.
Its is how the game itself is laid out.

It allows for the smallest ship, fighters and shuttles excluded, to equip the exact same engines, weapons, shield, deflectors etc. as the largest most powered vessels in the game.
With zero drawbacks.

You would have to strip the game down and start from scratch to correct the system as it currently is. Again, this is simply my opinion.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,632
# 105
09-19-2012, 10:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by veraticus View Post
There are only 5 Galaxy Class starships ever destroyed. Including novels.

USS Asgard - The Asgard was destroyed at the Battle of Rashanar during the Dominion War. Even then this was not a complete destruction but rather a complete burnout by a Breen Thermal weapon that destroyed every system on the ship leaving it a floating husk waiting to be reclaimed. (TNG novel: A Time to Be Born)

USS Enterprise-D - I don't think I need to explain this one.

USS Monitor - In 2377, the Monitor fell victim to the Warden nanite virus. A rescue crew inadvertently triggered a Borg self destruct sequence. (ST video game: Away Team)

USS Odyssey - Destroyed in 2370. The Dominion war started in 2373 and ended in 2375.

USS Yamato - Destroyed by an Iconian Computer Virus. (TNG episode: "Contagion")

So even using non canon sources only one Galaxy Class was "destroyed" during the Dominion War.



In my own opinion. It is neither.
Its is how the game itself is laid out.

It allows for the smallest ship, fighters and shuttles excluded, to equip the exact same engines, weapons, shield, deflectors etc. as the largest most powered vessels in the game.
With zero drawbacks.

You would have to strip the game down and start from scratch to correct the system as it currently is. Again, this is simply my opinion.
My point was that there were numerous battles we never saw and they didn't document every ship they destroyed. There were mentions of entire fleets lost so it's not actualy possible to claim exact numbers of what types of ships were lost. Also the game does not take into account the class of warp core but we know that smaller ships had different classes of core and suffered no proportional performance loss. So I see no reason for the game to differentiate beyond the sector space warp speed limit placed on lower tier vessels. Remember what your slotting into that engine slot is listed as an impulse engine we have no controll over our warp cores. besides a larger ship would consume more power so the output difference between a cruiser's and destroyer's warp core would on application be less than on paper. And the shield modifier is supposed to reflect the disparity in shielding which is why escorts get a 10% reduction in strength. Besides you can take the shield off your oddy and slap it onto your runabout so fighters and shuttles are not discluded.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln

Last edited by disposeableh3r0; 09-20-2012 at 07:47 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,411
# 106
09-19-2012, 10:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by veraticus View Post
You would have to strip the game down and start from scratch to correct the system as it currently is. Again, this is simply my opinion.

I agree with this. Thw whole MMO-concept doesn't pay enough tribute to the source material.

There shouldn't be any "tiers" of ships either. Light cruisers still have a purpose in battles when capital ships collide even though they don't feature as many guns. Every ship should be viable at every state in the game but for different tasks. Yet, these would also require a gameplay which surpasses the "go there, shoot this" pattern so before anyone rambles, no in current STO lower tiers have absolutely no purpose. Even the singleplayer part is so rushed that you're just annoyed of your uncapable "lower" ships...

But if we'd play another game, every ship should have specialized parts fitting it's actual class, some classes could use interchangeable modules (nebula/galaxy for example). In such a game we'd see smaller vessels partake in "endgame" content and fulfill a specific role to help the fleet complete different objectives. While cruisers would engage in long range combat, "escorts" (including light cruisers and "science" vessels) would protect them, outflank the enemy, support vessels would apply debuffs/buffs and even longer ranged support fire (anyone remembers "Birth of the Federation"? A game which classified the Nebula-class with tactical module as "long range artillery" to be placed behind your main fleet) while specialized parts of the fleet could pursue infiltration/S&R/sabotage objectives. Hell, I'd even play a tow ship in this setup, trator beaming disabled allies out of the danger zone...
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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,632
# 107
09-19-2012, 11:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by angrytarg View Post
I agree with this. Thw whole MMO-concept doesn't pay enough tribute to the source material.

There shouldn't be any "tiers" of ships either. Light cruisers still have a purpose in battles when capital ships collide even though they don't feature as many guns. Every ship should be viable at every state in the game but for different tasks. Yet, these would also require a gameplay which surpasses the "go there, shoot this" pattern so before anyone rambles, no in current STO lower tiers have absolutely no purpose. Even the singleplayer part is so rushed that you're just annoyed of your uncapable "lower" ships...

But if we'd play another game, every ship should have specialized parts fitting it's actual class, some classes could use interchangeable modules (nebula/galaxy for example). In such a game we'd see smaller vessels partake in "endgame" content and fulfill a specific role to help the fleet complete different objectives. While cruisers would engage in long range combat, "escorts" (including light cruisers and "science" vessels) would protect them, outflank the enemy, support vessels would apply debuffs/buffs and even longer ranged support fire (anyone remembers "Birth of the Federation"? A game which classified the Nebula-class with tactical module as "long range artillery" to be placed behind your main fleet) while specialized parts of the fleet could pursue infiltration/S&R/sabotage objectives. Hell, I'd even play a tow ship in this setup, trator beaming disabled allies out of the danger zone...
Dstahl actualty said one of his goals was to either remove the tier system or revamp it to allow you to bring your favorite hull with you. The largest obstacle to what you seek is that the engine cryptic uses doesn't support this kind of game. So beyond a strip down it would require a new engine as well, so a totaly new game. Thats not to say we couldn't see a limited interpretation of what you ask. If they added new Boff powers and maybe even new career fields you could see a wider variation in builds and perhaps more specialization. Then they could add in new equip ment for existing types and perhaps even new types for new slots that would allow you to more drasticly change the performance characteristics of your chosen vessel.

Some examples include the fact that the only tactical enhancements we have are exclusively for damage. That only afew science consoles are truly useful and many are never used. And that engineering consoles are a little bland beyond a certain point. the weapons choiced also tend to be a little vanilla since the only real difference between any of them (with the possible exception of torpedos) is the special proc.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 108
09-20-2012, 01:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by veraticus View Post
It allows for the smallest ship, fighters and shuttles excluded, to equip the exact same engines, weapons, shield, deflectors etc. as the largest most powered vessels in the game.
With zero drawbacks.

You would have to strip the game down and start from scratch to correct the system as it currently is. Again, this is simply my opinion.
You hit the nail on the head here my friend. I find it amusing that my runabout can equip starship class beam arrays, and that my starships can use shuttle weapons. However you have a point.

Escorts are small ships, smaller warp cores, lower energy output ability. They should be restricted to more efficient weapons like cannons and torps. And those should have their own damage scale.

Cruisers are LARGE ships, with massive warp cores. They should be able to EXCLUSIVELY use the high energy requiring weapons, like beam arrays, and the damage they do should reflect the amount of energy those kinds of ships are capable of putting into their weapons.

Science vessels really should be more sciency. Not real specific I know, but think about what it is they do. They are scouts/support/make your life suck with gravity wells ships. Their weapons should reflect this. They should fight more with abilities, and not so much with actual guns if you know what I mean.

So I agree completely with you. The fact that EVERY ship in the game can use ANY weapon it wants it ridiculous. There should be class restrictions on weapon types so you can actually even out the damage without breaking the game. Cuz tbh, if beam arrays had the same dps as dhcs (which if fired by a cruiser, esp the larger ones, that would make perfect sense), that would be fine for cruisers, but imagine an escort using them. That would be broken. What I actually find the most amusing is that the highest DPS weapons actually can't be used by fed cruisers or sci ships, yet the klingons have no such restriction (those weapons being dcs, and dhcs). And yet fed cruisers have the largest warp cores of ANY ship in the game (other than npcs). So why can't they use them? Heck if I know.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,825
# 109
09-20-2012, 07:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
You hit the nail on the head here my friend. I find it amusing that my runabout can equip starship class beam arrays, and that my starships can use shuttle weapons. However you have a point.

Escorts are small ships, smaller warp cores, lower energy output ability. They should be restricted to more efficient weapons like cannons and torps. And those should have their own damage scale.

Cruisers are LARGE ships, with massive warp cores. They should be able to EXCLUSIVELY use the high energy requiring weapons, like beam arrays, and the damage they do should reflect the amount of energy those kinds of ships are capable of putting into their weapons.

Science vessels really should be more sciency. Not real specific I know, but think about what it is they do. They are scouts/support/make your life suck with gravity wells ships. Their weapons should reflect this. They should fight more with abilities, and not so much with actual guns if you know what I mean.

So I agree completely with you. The fact that EVERY ship in the game can use ANY weapon it wants it ridiculous. There should be class restrictions on weapon types so you can actually even out the damage without breaking the game. Cuz tbh, if beam arrays had the same dps as dhcs (which if fired by a cruiser, esp the larger ones, that would make perfect sense), that would be fine for cruisers, but imagine an escort using them. That would be broken. What I actually find the most amusing is that the highest DPS weapons actually can't be used by fed cruisers or sci ships, yet the klingons have no such restriction (those weapons being dcs, and dhcs). And yet fed cruisers have the largest warp cores of ANY ship in the game (other than npcs). So why can't they use them? Heck if I know.
I 100% agree with you.
Cryptics ship system doesn't make any sense for anyone who has even the slightest idea about Star Trek ships.

If they want it or not, Star Trek is a "Cruiser" dominated universe, the bigger the ship the more power it can generate.
The more power a ship has, the stronger are its shields, its weapons and the faster it travels. Thats the basic prerequisite of Star Trek ships.

But cryptics designers completely ignored this for the sake of their cruiser/escort/science classification and making this game look like a Star Trek travesty. They wanted to have more action oriented space fights instead of more tactical and strategical ones.
I ask you what was wrong with the space fights at Star Trek: Bridge commander? Have they been boring in some way?

No of course not, althrough almost all ships where big "crusiers". So it is not like it isn't possible to make an exiting Star Trek game. Cryptics devs where just not interested in making one. They prefered to turn Star Trek ship mechanics completely upside down, just because they wanted to have small ships zipping around and other ships standing still being the small ships target practice.
Sorry devs you should have made a Star Wars game, Star Trek ships work different.


I doubt that the devs would change the whole game just to make it more like Star Trek, they are just not intersted in it, or they may be thinking that their system is good enough (honestly, it isn't).
Their system has nothing to do with Star Trek ships at all, it is just a cheap MMO stone/scissor/paper mechanic. They pressed some Star Trek ships into that pattern, sometimes without making any sense at all.
For example: The Prometheus is clearly a tactical Cruiser and the Intrepid just a light long range cruiser. The only "real" science vessel i know is the Oberth class.

On the other hand the only "Escort" class ship we know was the defiant. When i first saw STO ships i couldn't believe that they made an entire ship type just because of ONE canon ship.

I ask you WHY couldn't we get a "Exlporation Cruiser" ship type?
Something like a multi role Crusier that isn't just a "tank" but a more balanced ship, which is able to actually bite back when attacked.

They will never change their ship system, not alone because every escort pilot would rage if they would.

The only thing we can do is to present suggestions that make this game a bit more like as Star Trek should be.
I like your idea of restricted weapons for evey shipclass.
DHCs for Escorts. (we already have this)
Dual Beam Banks for Science Vessels. (wouldn't be a big problen, since Cruisers are just too slow)
Heavy Beam Arrays for Cruisers.
These "Heavy Beam Arrays", are only useable on the biggest Cruisers. These Weapons should do similar damag as the DHCs but they should also have a more narrow fireing Arc, but in contrast to DHCs not to the Front but to the ships sides. (maybe just 45 degrees, left and right)

So my question is: Why do Escorts have special Weapons, availlable only for them?
(since they are much more maneuverable and thus they have a real high defense value, escorts are clearly in favour.)

I am not asking to get the old conditions (Cryptics original stone/scissor/paper balance) but i want cruisers to get more "bite".
As i said Crusiers are just a big static target practices for Escorts. If STO where just a generic Sci Fi game this would be ok (if balanced correctly), but (sadly for cryptic) in Star Trek, all big Spaceships are Crusiers everything else is just support craft IMO.
The Galaxy Class being the most Iconic ship of them all, (at least for me). I personally being ashamed to use it, since it is nothng more than just a "healboat".
(Im shuddering while writing the word "healboat" in connection with the Galaxy Class, this is just wrong...)


Live long and prosper.

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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,351
# 110
09-20-2012, 09:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
No, the canon Galaxy is not a support ship. Its a ship that can hold its own without reinforcements. In DS9 they were wing leaders, which are Command ships, not support ships. Support ships do miniscule task that are job specific like drop mine, or hunt for cloaked ships, ferry supplies. In the canon world, escorts are support ships and the not guns of the fleet. We already know this game don't follow canon but at least they can make the Galaxy like it should be, up there with the Oddyssey.

My ships, beams are not strong enogh to do damage to players shields. Thats why i made this thread because the Galaxy-R is too weak.
When I say "support", I mean: leadership, fire, and healing. They act in the center of a group, surrounded by dps and other ships. It doesn't go out an picket other forces, nor go dancing in the middle of another task force.

Yes it can "hold" its own, but it wont go picking any fights.
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