Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,390
# 11
09-20-2012, 06:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
all federations cruisers should have +2 to their turn rate. and the vorcha has a turn rate of 10, not 7.
This.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
turning your build completely upside down so its terrble at doing cruisers things just so you can have turn rate bursts is not a solution, the kdf cruiser doesn't have to do any of that. fed cruisers are an anomaly within the game, everything but enormous carriers turns better, MUCH better. buffing their turn rate by 2 would put them back in the same ball park as everything else, and still be at the very low end. theres no reason for the average fed cruiser to have a turn rate between 3 and 5 worse then a kdf cruiser.

a kdf cruiser can do the same amount of support and healing as a fed cruiser, AND turn better. if it feels like it, it can crank up its turning with 2 or 3 consoles, equip DHCs, and be a dps monster, and a decent support ship. the federation ship simply cant, and it gets no other advantage for its disadvantage. there is a huge imbalance between fed and kdf cruisers because of this, imbalances should be fixed. giving them all+2 to turn would at least allow ships like the regent the ability to effectively use single cannons.

And very much this.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 116
# 12
09-20-2012, 06:49 AM
Wait, what? The Regent can't use single annons effectively? Whatever the reasons for that, they have little to do with low turn rates, the arc on single cannons is solidly huge and I've never had a problem getting and keeping them firing.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,279
# 13
09-20-2012, 07:27 AM
I was under the Impression that the differences the lower turnrates of the fed cruisers represent where canonical in nature.
Mainly that the federation/ Star Fleet has better Warp technology and shield technology and the Klingons/KDF has more hull and better impulse technology. The better impulse technology being why thier vessels turn better for the most part.

Fed cruisers may need a 1-2 point buff so their average Turnrate is between 8 and 10 at endgame levels.
Keep in mind that the KDF only has a few BCs at endgame with high turnrates as it is.
The Vorcha family all have a 10 base turn, the K'tingas have an 11, Neghvars have a base 9 and every other BC has a 5.5 turnrate.

Boosting the feds Cruisers without a boost of at least 1-2 points for the BCs will benefit the feds too much as the slowest of thier cruisers will now have 7-8 turnrate with the highest at 10. While our slowest will have a 5.5 making them nothing but targets with no hope of being able to manuever in combat.

If the BCs are also boosted by 1 or 2 points then everybody wins. The feds get more manueverable cruisers for thier gameplay and the KDF keeps the existing but slight advantage of design.
He who laughs last thinks slowest.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 725
When looking at hull and turn rate (which are fairly closely correlated) for Federation cruisers and KDF battle cruisers it is true that the KDF is objectively "better":

Turn rates (hull)
* 6 = Galaxy/Galaxy-X (40000), Odyssey (42000), Fleet Galaxy (44000)
* 7 = Assault/Star Cruiser (39000), Fleet Star Cruiser (42900)
* 8 = Cheyenne Retrofit (36000), Excelsior Retrofit (39000), Fleet Cheyenne Retrofit (39600)

* 8 = D'Kora (36000)
* 10 = Galor (34500)

* 5.5 = Bortas/Bortasqu' (43500)
* 9 = Negh'Var (39000), Fleet Negh'Var (42900)
* 10 = Vor'cha Retrofit (36000), Fleet Vor'cha Retrofit (39600)
* 11 = K'tinga Retrofit (31500), Fleet K't'inga Retrofit (34450)

Does that mean KDF ships are better? No. There are a whole host of other factors -- number of crew, bridge officer, console, and device slots (all Fed T5 cruisers have 4 devices, all KDF T5 battle cruisers have 3 devices except for the Bortas/Bortasqu') all make a difference.
Fleet holding costs | Accolade Points: 18020 (Fed Engineer), 16400 (KDF Tactical)
Subscribe to Accolade thread | Join channel Accolades | Idea: Mail Revamp
New on STOwiki: Spire projects | STO Timeline | Fed-KDF Disparity | upcoming content
Fed Fleet: Section 31 (level 20) | KDF Fleet: Klingon Intelligence (level 20)

Last edited by phyrexianhero; 09-20-2012 at 08:00 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 255
# 15
09-20-2012, 08:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phyrexianhero View Post
When looking at hull and turn rate (which are fairly closely correlated) for Federation cruisers and KDF battle cruisers it is true that the KDF is objectively "better":

Turn rates (hull)
* 6 = Galaxy/Galaxy-X (40000), Odyssey (42000), Fleet Galaxy (44000)
* 7 = Assault/Star Cruiser (39000), Fleet Star Cruiser (42900)
* 8 = Excelsior Retrofit (39000), Fleet Cheyenne Retrofit (39600)

* 8 = D'Kora (36000)
* 10 = Galor (34500)

* 5.5 = Bortas/Bortasqu' (43500)
* 9 = Negh'Var (39000), Fleet Negh'Var (42900)
* 10 = Vor'cha Retrofit (36000), Fleet Vor'cha Retrofit (39600)
* 11 = K'tinga Retrofit (31500), Fleet K't'inga Retrofit (34450)

Does that mean KDF ships are better? No. There are a whole host of other factors -- bridge officer, console, and device slots (all Fed T5 cruisers have 4 devices, all KDF T5 battle cruisers have 3 devices except for the Bortas/Bortasqu') all make a difference.
Exactly.

What I have observed in flying both Fed Cruisers and KDF Cruisers is that, KDF Cruisers do damage, and Fed Cruisers Tank. Thats why I specced my Vor'cha, Negh'var and Bortasqu' for damage, I fly all of the KDF Battle Cruisers (apart from the K't'inga) and I do fantastically well. When I fly my Fed, I can't do damage, but nobody can destroy me. Thats why I've always gone by the rule of:-

"Want a Tanky Cruiser? Play a Fed ship. Want a DPS Cruiser? Fly a Klingon ship."

That's a rule I love, because it gives me a reason to play both, and be brilliant at what they are intended for. Fed Cruisers are more for Tanking, Klingon Cruisers for DPS. Are they unbalanced? Not in the slightest. Why? Just because one Cruiser (take the Odyssey) is the Cruiser to end all Tanky Cruisers, doesn't mean its the best. The Bortasqu' is even debatable for being the best KDF Battle Cruiser, due to its low turn rate - as a result there is a reason to play all the KDF Battle Cruisers.

My point is, look at the way the fleets are designed. The KDF primarily rely on their Battle Cruisers and sometimes Raptors for pure up damage, with support Bird-of-Prey's, Carriers and Destroyers as support vessels. The Feds rely on Escorts for pure-up damage, because that's what they are designed to do, supported by healing Cruisers and debuffing Science ships. This is why KDF Battle Cruisers are like this, because they are the primary weapon for the KDF whereas the Fed Cruisers are not.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
T5 Ship Comparison Spreadsheet
Play my missions on Holodeck!
Return of Ja'Dok Series (6 Part Series)
Enemy of the Exile Series (4 Part Series)
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 267
# 16
09-20-2012, 08:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phyrexianhero View Post
When looking at hull and turn rate (which are fairly closely correlated) for Federation cruisers and KDF battle cruisers it is true that the KDF is objectively "better":

Turn rates (hull)
* 6 = Galaxy/Galaxy-X (40000), Odyssey (42000), Fleet Galaxy (44000)
* 7 = Assault/Star Cruiser (39000), Fleet Star Cruiser (42900)
* 8 = Cheyenne Retrofit (36000), Excelsior Retrofit (39000), Fleet Cheyenne Retrofit (39600)

* 8 = D'Kora (36000)
* 10 = Galor (34500)

* 5.5 = Bortas/Bortasqu' (43500)
* 9 = Negh'Var (39000), Fleet Negh'Var (42900)
* 10 = Vor'cha Retrofit (36000), Fleet Vor'cha Retrofit (39600)
* 11 = K'tinga Retrofit (31500), Fleet K't'inga Retrofit (34450)

Does that mean KDF ships are better? No. There are a whole host of other factors -- number of crew, bridge officer, console, and device slots (all Fed T5 cruisers have 4 devices, all KDF T5 battle cruisers have 3 devices except for the Bortas/Bortasqu') all make a difference.
I would trade a device slot for a higher turn rate for my Fed ship any day of the week. I run PvP and most of the time I don't even use the extra device slot, so missing it wouldn't make much of a difference to me (personally).

Last edited by paragon92518; 09-20-2012 at 08:20 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 267
# 17
09-20-2012, 08:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post
Yes, Cruisers should get a similar turnrate as Science ships.
I am not starting to list some canon sources that say federation cruisers should be more maneuverable (which is true), they are just boring to fly, thats all.
I have never seen a StarTrek game treating Cruiser so bad as STO.
Here, Cruisers are just big cumbersome flying bricks that cannot turn and only a few have enough firepower to seriously strike back. (Just being able to take Damage is NOT fun! IMHO)


Live long and prosper.
You can't really go into Kerr'at with a bulky Cruiser. You'll get crushed quickly regardless of build. You must have an Escort or an Intrepid. Otherwise its no fun and a waste of your time going into places like that.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,279
# 18
09-20-2012, 08:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ooiue View Post
Exactly.

What I have observed in flying both Fed Cruisers and KDF Cruisers is that, KDF Cruisers do damage, and Fed Cruisers Tank. Thats why I specced my Vor'cha, Negh'var and Bortasqu' for damage, I fly all of the KDF Battle Cruisers (apart from the K't'inga) and I do fantastically well. When I fly my Fed, I can't do damage, but nobody can destroy me. Thats why I've always gone by the rule of:-

"Want a Tanky Cruiser? Play a Fed ship. Want a DPS Cruiser? Fly a Klingon ship."

That's a rule I love, because it gives me a reason to play both, and be brilliant at what they are intended for. Fed Cruisers are more for Tanking, Klingon Cruisers for DPS. Are they unbalanced? Not in the slightest. Why? Just because one Cruiser (take the Odyssey) is the Cruiser to end all Tanky Cruisers, doesn't mean its the best. The Bortasqu' is even debatable for being the best KDF Battle Cruiser, due to its low turn rate - as a result there is a reason to play all the KDF Battle Cruisers.

My point is, look at the way the fleets are designed. The KDF primarily rely on their Battle Cruisers and sometimes Raptors for pure up damage, with support Bird-of-Prey's, Carriers and Destroyers as support vessels. The Feds rely on Escorts for pure-up damage, because that's what they are designed to do, supported by healing Cruisers and debuffing Science ships. This is why KDF Battle Cruisers are like this, because they are the primary weapon for the KDF whereas the Fed Cruisers are not.
This is why I say buff the turnrates for Fed cruisers and KDF battlecruiser by the same amount of 1-2 points across the board evenly, so the feel of the bioth factions play does not drastically change and and afford a new advantage to iether side.
It will just make the feds feel a little more agile than before and leave the KDF feeeling the same as it always has in combat.
He who laughs last thinks slowest.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,204
# 19
09-20-2012, 08:42 AM
I have no problem with Fed Cruisers getting buffed.

Just about everything else Fedside's been buffed.

Why stop now.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,838
# 20
09-20-2012, 08:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
I was under the Impression that the differences the lower turnrates of the fed cruisers represent where canonical in nature.
Mainly that the federation/ Star Fleet has better Warp technology and shield technology and the Klingons/KDF has more hull and better impulse technology. The better impulse technology being why thier vessels turn better for the most part.
And that's the problem right there.
in STO the Fed cruisers have the exact same shield mod as the KDF counterparts.
I did like the solution from games liks SFC and Klingon Academy that basically gave the Feds more shields overall and balanced it with the reduced turnrate.
Here...this is missing.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:59 PM.