Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 106
# 21
09-23-2012, 08:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyeto13 View Post
Note: This is not a petition to remove cloaking devices from Klingon player's ships. This is talking about IP and canon wise and discussing Klingon social-psychology and military tactics as a race. Again I do not wish anything in game to change.[/b]

I was thinking about Klingons and Cloaking devices today... and I was kinda stumped on to how the two became acquainted. I know that some how in the late 22nd century that the Romulans gave the Klingons the cloaking tech (By one means or another... ) But My question is: How does a race that values honor and military strength justify hiding from an enemy

I know that Klingons are not fools, but it seems so out of their style to even use cloaking devices. Wouldn't it be dishonorable to hide in the rocks on a path and then ambush your enemy? That is the same idea behind a Bird of Prey: you cloak and then ambush your enemy when he is not ready for it. Where is the honor in fighting an enemy who is not also prepared to meet you with full force? You are denying you and your enemy a full fight with full honor.

Again, I know the immense tactical advantage this would give a military force. But it just doesn't seem Klingon
3 d7's in exchange for a romulan cloaking device. because of the romulan's interest in this class of ship, they built better ships, notably the D'Deridex class and then the Valdore Type later on. When the Klingons got a hold of this device they modified it so it is perfected, the romulans did not even alter theirs and created a new one later on with the same problem, that sensors can pick up on the distortions of a cloaked ship or an abnormally high amount of energy being used at the time, or even traveling at speeds that a cloak can not cover.

As for Klingon honor, what more honorable way is there to fight an enemy of skill and cunning! if there was no honor and just torpedoes flying around, ships exploding left right and center, it would be more a senseless bloodbath even though honor would demand better, the Klingons were reluctant to fight battle like these when the federation attacked the dominion on their way to DS9. Why to you think General Chang was giddy with anticipation of a battle with the Excelsior and Enterprise? because it was honorable and worthy, it turns out his K'Vort was the problem, even then he found it very honorable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 121
# 22
09-23-2012, 10:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by varool View Post
As for Klingon honor, what more honorable way is there to fight an enemy of skill and cunning! if there was no honor and just torpedoes flying around, ships exploding left right and center, it would be more a senseless bloodbath even though honor would demand better, the Klingons were reluctant to fight battle like these when the federation attacked the dominion on their way to DS9.
I think there is the real answer to the question.

Klingon honor is not really about standing tall and being the last man standing (sort of a Viking honor). It comes forth more of a hunter society, as their ancestry to hunting animals shows (if you remember the TNG episode where everybody, including Worf, de-evolved).

There is another TNG episode where Worf goes to a planet, being told it was a Romulan prison camp where his father might be held. He was not, but a number of Klingons were, including Klingon youths grown up in captivity, and not being taught Klingon culture and honor. In two episodes, Worf proceeds educating the youths. What Worf teaches them was most illuminating about Klingons. He goes to the woods one day with a boy to hunt, and they come back with prey, and all sing to their victory. For Klingons it is not dishonorable to sneak up on your prey with stealth, and then slay it quickly and decisively. That is the hunt. So in using the cloak, they hunt, and their targets are seen as prey, hence the analogy of the ship name, bird of prey.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 70
# 23
09-24-2012, 12:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by varool View Post
3 d7's in exchange for a romulan cloaking device. because of the romulan's interest in this class of ship, they built better ships, notably the D'Deridex class and then the Valdore Type later on. When the Klingons got a hold of this device they modified it so it is perfected, the romulans did not even alter theirs and created a new one later on with the same problem, that sensors can pick up on the distortions of a cloaked ship or an abnormally high amount of energy being used at the time, or even traveling at speeds that a cloak can not cover.
Apocryphally, the Romulans were interested in the D7 largely for their power systems. They were apparently well suited for cloaking devices. Romulan cloaking devices are as far as I'm aware, amost universally better than Klingon versions. The Federation would have been more interested in pentetrating Romulan cloak over Klingon derived versions simply because the Romulans used them far more, and relations with the Romulans never reached the same warmth as Federation-Klingon relations did. To my knowledge, the Federation only had to hunt for a single cloaked Klingon ship, compared to the numerous attempts to pick up Romulan ships. Klingons did make the first cloak that could fire while cloaked, but by all appearances it could only fire torpedoes and could be tracked with readily available more sensitive sensors. Given that the Romulans were in on the Khitomer Conspiracy, they may have even been the ones to supply Chang with the cloak. It would fit with their usual methods of trying to maintain a favourable balance of power for them, and if they didn't then it would mean that they did practically nothing to contribute to the Khitomer Conspiracy.

Sensors can pick up a cloaked ship travelling at high warp, that wasn't known until T'Rul told the crew of the Defiant. Unless I'm mistaken, only the Jem'hadar have been shown to detect as well. The might simply be because Warbirds normally travel at lower speeds to decrease the chances for detection except when necessary, which would also mean that a Federation ship is unlikely to know what the distortion means, if they pick it up at all. There's also the matter of scale. A B'rel is far smaller than a D'deridex, and has far less energy to try and hide. Even the Negh'Var is about half the size of the D'deridex (686m vs 1,353m). For all we know, a Negh'Var might produce the same disturbance while travelling at warp 5.

Unless the cloak is leaking, sensors normally can't pick up a D'deridex without actively searching for a cloaked vessel. If the Klingon cloak was better than the Romulan cloak, then why would the Defiant use a Romulan cloak? Certainly, there's the Khitomer Accord aspect to consider, but if Klingon cloaking technology was better than Romulan, then why not agree to exchange sensor data to be allowed to use the better and more accessible Klingon cloak? The Romulans then wouldn't have had to loan the Federation a cloak which could potentially be examined, and any undiscovered flaws in the cloak, such as the disturbance caused at higher warp, would remain unknown to the Federation.

Romulans are more obsessed with making their cloaks work at peak efficiency, monitoring every potential source of emissions to limit the possibility that even a Federation ship on its toes near the neutral zone are unlikely to pick up even the hint of a Warbird shadowing it. Klingons however, are generally more content with the cloak working well enough. Which again is fine, not many actively try to detect cloaked Klingon ships. A Klingon ship is often decloaked as well, whereas a Romulan ship rarely is.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 106
# 24
09-24-2012, 03:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustychat View Post
Apocryphally, the Romulans were interested in the D7 largely for their power systems. They were apparently well suited for cloaking devices. Romulan cloaking devices are as far as I'm aware, amost universally better than Klingon versions. The Federation would have been more interested in pentetrating Romulan cloak over Klingon derived versions simply because the Romulans used them far more, and relations with the Romulans never reached the same warmth as Federation-Klingon relations did. To my knowledge, the Federation only had to hunt for a single cloaked Klingon ship, compared to the numerous attempts to pick up Romulan ships. Klingons did make the first cloak that could fire while cloaked, but by all appearances it could only fire torpedoes and could be tracked with readily available more sensitive sensors. Given that the Romulans were in on the Khitomer Conspiracy, they may have even been the ones to supply Chang with the cloak. It would fit with their usual methods of trying to maintain a favourable balance of power for them, and if they didn't then it would mean that they did practically nothing to contribute to the Khitomer Conspiracy.
Klingon ships can not even detect each other while under cloak, ordinarily federation ships can not detect klingon ships under cloak, even at high warp.

The K'Vort had a problem because of exhaust system, that could be tracked through a cloak. i doubt even Klingon cloak can do anything about that. do not underestimate Klingon technological advancements either, while their ships are ancient, they can easily match starfleet with newer more powerful ships so their cloak would of advanced as well. But this was a one off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rustychat View Post
Sensors can pick up a cloaked ship travelling at high warp, that wasn't known until T'Rul told the crew of the Defiant. Unless I'm mistaken, only the Jem'hadar have been shown to detect as well. The might simply be because Warbirds normally travel at lower speeds to decrease the chances for detection except when necessary, which would also mean that a Federation ship is unlikely to know what the distortion means, if they pick it up at all. There's also the matter of scale. A B'rel is far smaller than a D'deridex, and has far less energy to try and hide. Even the Negh'Var is about half the size of the D'deridex (686m vs 1,353m). For all we know, a Negh'Var might produce the same disturbance while travelling at warp 5.
The Enteprise regularly pick up the cloaking signature of Romulan and Klingon ships just before they decloaked, any competent weapons officer at tactical would be able to notice these distortions right away. sometimes above orbit it is possible to spot a cloaked ship mostly by the light betraying the presence of the cloak.

it was known, when the enterprise was going after Gomtuu to communicate there were 2 romulan ships traveling far faster then they should to keep up with the enterprise, this was detected even through the cloak. T'Rul did not know if the Romulan cloak can be detected by an Active Polaron scan and then there is the romulan warp core using a tiny blackhole to power their engines, it was detected by DS9 during the time O'Brien was shifting through time.

D'Deridex warbird's do not have a high warp capability, probably around warp 9 at best, it could of been a design choice with the cloak in mind for warp 5.

The Matter of size is not important at all, it's if anything can be detected that can not be hidden behind a cloaking device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rustychat View Post
Unless the cloak is leaking, sensors normally can't pick up a D'deridex without actively searching for a cloaked vessel. If the Klingon cloak was better than the Romulan cloak, then why would the Defiant use a Romulan cloak? Certainly, there's the Khitomer Accord aspect to consider, but if Klingon cloaking technology was better than Romulan, then why not agree to exchange sensor data to be allowed to use the better and more accessible Klingon cloak? The Romulans then wouldn't have had to loan the Federation a cloak which could potentially be examined, and any undiscovered flaws in the cloak, such as the disturbance caused at higher warp, would remain unknown to the Federation.
A tachyon detection field can detect cloaked ships at a specific location, especially if any suspicion of said ships are likely to pass through.

The Klingons and Romulans after this exchange were at war, sharing cloaking data would be like sticking homing beacon on every ship in the empire, why take such an unacceptable security risk? but dealing with the federation for a cloaking device was more strategic call then anything, it was attached to the defiant, but it's power signature was very high for a ship of it's size, the Jem'Hadar after scanning did pick up the defiant and acted if nothing was wrong then planned something for the arrival of the defiant, the Dominion are experts at data gathering. at the time the cloak was an exchange for data on the dominion in the gamma quadrant for the romulans, probably required for their alliance with the obsidian order to attack the founders.

the federation were already aware of these flaws anyway because the Enterprise already acquired a romulan cloaking device and a little later a klingon cloaking device by stealing a bird of prey through a swap of crews when the Enterprise-A was destroyed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rustychat View Post
Romulans are more obsessed with making their cloaks work at peak efficiency, monitoring every potential source of emissions to limit the possibility that even a Federation ship on its toes near the neutral zone are unlikely to pick up even the hint of a Warbird shadowing it. Klingons however, are generally more content with the cloak working well enough. Which again is fine, not many actively try to detect cloaked Klingon ships. A Klingon ship is often decloaked as well, whereas a Romulan ship rarely is.
Romulans are not obsessed with cloaking technology, but rather to keep up in the technology race vs the klingons and federation.
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