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Banned
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 846
# 71
09-24-2012, 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by teleon22 View Post
Is that with three of them?
3 of them, on a full team using them.

Mind you that's assuming most of the team is using beams.

I haven't done the Math (Hilbert have you beat me to it yet?) on a team using Cannon.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 75
# 72
09-24-2012, 10:33 AM
SNB doffs have always been stupid. They basically give the crowning captain ability of the Sci class to a super proccing damage focused Tac Captain. Terrible from a balance perspective. Do attack pattern doffs give sci captains a proc for attack patterns? Is there an Alpha Strike doff that procs alpha strikes for Engis? This is a doff that got stuck in for pve and no one there wanted it and it was forgotten.

Make SNB doffs reduce the cooldown of SNB on Sci Captains.

Voila fixed. This is what it should have been from the beginning. This forces any Sci Cap who wants to use them to reduce the effectiveness of his sci abilities (vm doffs, sci team, etc) or his survivability (bfi, conn, etc).

Honestly the mechanics on the SNB doffs are as stupid as giving pets phaser procs. Both are fine in small doses, and absolutely ruinous when used en mass.
Nixus
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 423
# 73
09-24-2012, 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostyandfrosty View Post
3 of them, on a full team using them.

Mind you that's assuming most of the team is using beams.

I haven't done the Math (Hilbert have you beat me to it yet?) on a team using Cannon.
I didn't do the math on it either. I do know from experience that when an Escort uses it on you with CRF-x2, you as a Cruiser can sort of kiss your shield buff uptime goodbye; which I personally think is a real problem because before, you only had to worry about SNB once in a while and you could use RSP or something in the meantime as a stopgap measure. Now, now, now you are totally screwed because even your stop-gap measure is Sub Nuked.

Recently, I set my Fleet-mate up in a Sci-escort with two of these duty officers. Once the EPTS buff is removed from the target cruiser or carrier, thanks to the Duty Officer PROC, and the target goes to use RSP, my fleet-mate can immediately SNB the target and then the target is just totally screwed because it can?t even clear tactical de-buffs like APB as all of his defensive buffs are now possibly on extended cool-downs including tactical team.

Anyway, the SNB DUFF is total cheese!! I won?t play against groups using them! Yes, I now actually leave matches. Sorry guys! I can?t tolerate this level of BS>


Sigh... it will ruin PVP once more people start to catch on.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 120
# 74
09-24-2012, 10:49 AM
7 Beams (6.4 being the max): 3.74 hits per second average without FAW
With 3 SNB DOFFs the proc chance is 1.5% = 3.74 * 0.015 = 0.0561 Proc/Sec average
1/0.0561 = 17.82 seconds. So with 6.4 beams you get a proc every 17.82 seconds. Now divide by the number of people running 3 DOFFs with beams and that is how often you will have a proc.

An Escort with 4x DHC + 3 x Turret chaining RF3 and RF2 will have ~7 hits per second.
7 * 0.015 = 0.105 Proc/sec average.
1/0.105 = 9.52 seconds. So a proc will occur every 9.52 seconds on average. With two escorts doing this, there will be a proc every 4.76 seconds on average. This is using averages. During the heat of Rapid Fire 3 and 2, the hits per second would be the highest. Since there is a proc in less than 10 seconds, it can basically be assumed that each rapid fire will have a proc with it.

An Escort with 4 x DC + 3 x Turret chaining RF3 and RF2 will have 9.4 hits per second.
9.4 * 0.015 = 0.141 Proc / sec average.
1/0.141 = 7.09 seconds. So a proc will occur ever 7 seconds on average. With two escorts, this will happen ever 3.5 seconds.

It would be nice if someone can check my numbers. Thanks!
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,137
# 75
09-24-2012, 10:56 AM
Ok, let's take a look at the math and see...

First, I can confirm that this Doff's enhancement can only proc once per firing cycle. So let's imagine a best-case scenario of using 8 turrets on a ship in order to maximize the potential for procs. They have a 2-second firing cycle with a 1-second cooldown, so 3sec cycle ... that's 20 cycles per minute, per turret.

20 x 8 = 160 per min
160 x .005 = .8
60 / .8 = 75

So, using 8 turrets and one of these Doffs, you should average one proc every 75 seconds.

Slotting 3 doesn't change the odds, it simply triples the opportunities for the proc. It's not 1.5% chance, it's 3 rolls at .5% chance each. So, based on the math above, it's 3 times per 75 seconds (not once every 25 sec - there's a difference, though arguing it could be semantic).

For comparison, 8 phaser arrays work out to 3 per 100 seconds.

I have to agree, for a power that strips all buffs off a target, this proc rate is concerning, even when only looking at the "attack of the spreadsheet" tallies.

Before we start discussing possible solutions, lemme cover a few things openly here...

- We will not limit the stacking of this Doff. Stack Limits are defined by Specialization, and this Doff belongs to a spec that allows a stack of 3. Changing it would affect all Energy Weapons officers, and would have an adverse affect on too many players. This is not something we're open to considering at the moment.

- Decreasing the odds of the proc further is not likely to net a positive result. The proc rate isn't really the core complaint here, but rather the overall effectiveness of the Doff.

- This is very nearly a PvP-only issue. This Doff's value is negligible in PvE, where enemies generally run with very few active buffs, or use buffs with shorter up-time. This means that reducing its effectiveness has to be done with care, as it is already largely undesirable for players that do not participate in PvP and we don't wish to diminish that even further.

Ok, with that out of the way, here's a few possible solutions I could foresee happening:

1) The power currently strips up to 1000 buffs from the target whenever it goes off. This can be reduced in magnitude to only clear 1-3 buffs.

This solution could allow the power to maintain nearly its full effectiveness in PvE (where enemies rarely have more than a couple buffs at a time) while reducing its impact on PvP players (where enemy players frequently stack 10 or more buffs at a time).

2) We can add an internal cooldown that would limit the proc from firing more than once every X seconds.

The exact figure would probably end up being in the 30-second region. Given the proc chance math I did above, this would somewhat normalize the scenario of a player having 3 slotted.

That's all that comes to mind immediately. I'm open to hearing feedback on these suggestions, or considering other options (as long as they're reasonable).
-=-=-=-=-=-
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Systems Design
"Play smart!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Kurland here...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 566
# 76
09-24-2012, 10:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zyphoid7 View Post
Make SNB doffs reduce the cooldown of SNB on Sci Captains.
That would be also a great fix, even though I'm not too keen for a sci captain to have subnuc ability every minute or so. But at least that would be restricted to only sci Cpt...

Thing is that before, due to the rarity, subnuc doffs were not very likely to be encountered in a full team, now the probability has increased drastically...

And whoever said private matches can be set up, with specific rules, this ideea, as is a good one in essence, doesn't address the main issue. It's hard enough to get a match rolling in queues, having private matches is even harder. Most pvpers, from the few left still in game, don't have the luxury of setting private matches every time, due to time zone, personal availability, etc. come on cryptic, how hard is to fix this?
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...

Last edited by trueprom3theus; 09-24-2012 at 11:01 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 423
# 77
09-24-2012, 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Ok, let's take a look at the math and see...

First, I can confirm that this Doff's enhancement can only proc once per firing cycle. So let's imagine a best-case scenario of using 8 turrets on a ship in order to maximize the potential for procs. They have a 2-second firing cycle with a 1-second cooldown, so 3sec cycle ... that's 20 cycles per minute, per turret.

20 x 8 = 160 per min
160 x .005 = .8
60 / .8 = 75

So, using 8 turrets and one of these Doffs, you should average one proc every 75 seconds.

Slotting 3 doesn't change the odds, it simply triples the opportunities for the proc. It's not 1.5% chance, it's 3 rolls at .5% chance each. So, based on the math above, it's 3 times per 75 seconds (not once every 25 sec - there's a difference, though arguing it could be semantic).

For comparison, 8 phaser arrays work out to 3 per 100 seconds.

I have to agree, for a power that strips all buffs off a target, this proc rate is concerning, even when only looking at the "attack of the spreadsheet" tallies.

Before we start discussing possible solutions, lemme cover a few things openly here...

- We will not limit the stacking of this Doff. Stack Limits are defined by Specialization, and this Doff belongs to a spec that allows a stack of 3. Changing it would affect all Energy Weapons officers, and would have an adverse affect on too many players. This is not something we're open to considering at the moment.

- Decreasing the odds of the proc further is not likely to net a positive result. The proc rate isn't really the core complaint here, but rather the overall effectiveness of the Doff.

- This is very nearly a PvP-only issue. This Doff's value is negligible in PvE, where enemies generally run with very few active buffs, or use buffs with shorter up-time. This means that reducing its effectiveness has to be done with care, as it is already largely undesirable for players that do not participate in PvP and we don't wish to diminish that even further.

Ok, with that out of the way, here's a few possible solutions I could foresee happening:

1) The power currently strips up to 1000 buffs from the target whenever it goes off. This can be reduced in magnitude to only clear 1-3 buffs.

This solution could allow the power to maintain nearly its full effectiveness in PvE (where enemies rarely have more than a couple buffs at a time) while reducing its impact on PvP players (where enemy players frequently stack 10 or more buffs at a time).

2) We can add an internal cooldown that would limit the proc from firing more than once every X seconds.

The exact figure would probably end up being in the 30-second region. Given the proc chance math I did above, this would somewhat normalize the scenario of a player having 3 slotted.

That's all that comes to mind immediately. I'm open to hearing feedback on these suggestions, or considering other options (as long as they're reasonable).
If you can make it clear a single buff per PROC, that is a least, in my own opinion, the best solution because now I can maybe get another TT or ES from another team mate. Point is, it will be less of an issue if I only lose 1 buff verses all buffs. Even if I lose two, I have team mates.

Last edited by teleon22; 09-24-2012 at 11:07 AM.
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 846
# 78
09-24-2012, 11:09 AM
Someone is clearly unaware of how doff stacking actually works in game.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 423
# 79
09-24-2012, 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostyandfrosty View Post
Someone is clearly unaware of how doff stacking actually works in game.
maybe so, but he is at least listening to us for a possiable solution. So give him one that won't "break" PVE and that we can live with in PVP.

I know how to fix it. The fix is to make you immune to SNB PROC for a duration of time after being hit with it, because 5 people all equiped with 3 of these things, even with only removing a single Buff at a time; will still mean that you will have been completely stripped.

So I propose limiting the Buff removal to 1 or 2 buffs and then placing an immunity to SNB over a set duration. I have no idea what a fair duration of time would be, but i'd like it to be significant. Someone that wants to crunch numbers can tell me what that duration should be.

Last edited by teleon22; 09-24-2012 at 11:20 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 120
# 80
09-24-2012, 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Slotting 3 doesn't change the odds, it simply triples the opportunities for the proc. It's not 1.5% chance, it's 3 rolls at .5% chance each. So, based on the math above, it's 3 times per 75 seconds (not once every 25 sec - there's a difference, though arguing it could be semantic).
Thanks for that clarification. So lets do the probability calc for 3 DOFFs:
1-(0.995*0.995*0.995) = 0.014925
So with 3 DOFFs you have a 1.4925% chance of a proc. ~1.5%

From combat logs I have found 4xDC + 3xTurrets + RF3 + RF2 = ~9.4 hits per second
From combat logs I have found 4xDHC + 3xTurrets + RF3 + RF2 = ~6.99 hits per second
From combat logs I have found 8xBeams = 3.4-3.74 hits per second.
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