Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,283
# 1 Ship Energy Subsystem Feedback
09-24-2012, 08:12 PM
The four subsystems offer a variety of benefits for having a high power level but some are clearly more useful than others. While it may be by design that the weapon subsystem takes priority in combat over all others with the sole exception of torpedo builds or situational occasions I feel it is very limiting. It may also be that the original design did not assume most ships would have 7 weapons on target the majority of the time as well I do not know. The shield subystem effects also scales exponentially whereas engine has diminishing returns and auxiliary has a linear scaling.

Exponential Scaling: If you gain 10 more energy in the subsystem you get a bonus of 2. If you add 20 you gain a bonus of 5, not 4.
Linear Scaling: If you gain 10 more energy in the subsystem you get a bonus of 2. If you add 20 you gain a bonus of 4, like you should.
Diminishing Returns: If you gain 10 more energy in the subsystem you get a bonus of 2. If you add 20 you gain a bonus of 3, not 4.

Weapon Subsystem: This is the number one priority the majority of the time. Maxing it at 125 or even higher in the case of the beam array when the overflow helps depending upon the latest patch and phase of the moon. This is due to a variety of reasons from DPS being the most important to just how much potential damage is lost from multiple weapons firing at less than maximum power unlike other similar game mechanics.
Suggestion A: Change how the bonus damage is granted and organize it in tiers. Right now you gain a 2% damage bonus per point for a total of +150% damage. I would suggest that from 50-75 you gain 3% per point, 75-100 2% and 100-125 1%. While this would look like a diminishing returns setup during actual play it would be much more linear than the current system.
Suggestion B: Change how firing multiple weapons works. Instead of draining system energy levels have them apply a basic damage debuff to weapons so it has a linear effect on damage.

Shield Subsystem: The number two priority and for good reason. Shields keep you alive, shield resist and regeneration keep your shields up. The problem is how it scales with itself. The higher your shield resist is the more raw damage it takes to do the same amount of real damage to your shield increasing the effectiveness of a higher regeneration amount.
Suggestion: Move shield regeneration bonus to the auxiliary subsystem and possibly change a few boff abilities to be effected by shield subsystem power level instead of auxiliary such as feedback pulse and shield modulation ability (?).

Engine Subsystem: Grants bonus defense which caps out at a specific point and also increases maximum speed and turn rate slightly. Many players keep it just high enough to get the defense bonus and then ignore it.
Suggestion: Some boff abilities should be effected by this, such as attack patterns and/or eject warp plasma. It should also add a small amount of speed (above 50 power) when your held like the [Aux] mod on engines. And possibly suggestion A and/or B.
Suggestion A: Increase the turn rate modifier.
Suggestion B: Rework the defense bonus so it does not cap until 125 power instead of being based on ship speed.

Auxiliary Subsystem: Increases the effectiveness of various boff abilities primarily science and healing. Sadly though unless your flying a torpedo boat it is difficult to justify having a high amount of power in this subsystem after feeding the other three.
Suggestion: As stated in the shield subystem allow it to increase shield regeneration rate. In addition it should add a small amount of hull resistance such as 25 at 125 power making it a better option.

I really think that would make all of the subsystems important and useful depending on your build and ship used.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 423
# 2
09-25-2012, 07:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
The four subsystems offer a variety of benefits for having a high power level but some are clearly more useful than others. While it may be by design that the weapon subsystem takes priority in combat over all others with the sole exception of torpedo builds or situational occasions I feel it is very limiting. It may also be that the original design did not assume most ships would have 7 weapons on target the majority of the time as well I do not know. The shield subystem effects also scales exponentially whereas engine has diminishing returns and auxiliary has a linear scaling.

Exponential Scaling: If you gain 10 more energy in the subsystem you get a bonus of 2. If you add 20 you gain a bonus of 5, not 4.
Linear Scaling: If you gain 10 more energy in the subsystem you get a bonus of 2. If you add 20 you gain a bonus of 4, like you should.
Diminishing Returns: If you gain 10 more energy in the subsystem you get a bonus of 2. If you add 20 you gain a bonus of 3, not 4.

Weapon Subsystem: This is the number one priority the majority of the time. Maxing it at 125 or even higher in the case of the beam array when the overflow helps depending upon the latest patch and phase of the moon. This is due to a variety of reasons from DPS being the most important to just how much potential damage is lost from multiple weapons firing at less than maximum power unlike other similar game mechanics.
Suggestion A: Change how the bonus damage is granted and organize it in tiers. Right now you gain a 2% damage bonus per point for a total of +150% damage. I would suggest that from 50-75 you gain 3% per point, 75-100 2% and 100-125 1%. While this would look like a diminishing returns setup during actual play it would be much more linear than the current system.
Suggestion B: Change how firing multiple weapons works. Instead of draining system energy levels have them apply a basic damage debuff to weapons so it has a linear effect on damage.

Shield Subsystem: The number two priority and for good reason. Shields keep you alive, shield resist and regeneration keep your shields up. The problem is how it scales with itself. The higher your shield resist is the more raw damage it takes to do the same amount of real damage to your shield increasing the effectiveness of a higher regeneration amount.
Suggestion: Move shield regeneration bonus to the auxiliary subsystem and possibly change a few boff abilities to be effected by shield subsystem power level instead of auxiliary such as feedback pulse and shield modulation ability (?).

Engine Subsystem: Grants bonus defense which caps out at a specific point and also increases maximum speed and turn rate slightly. Many players keep it just high enough to get the defense bonus and then ignore it.
Suggestion: Some boff abilities should be effected by this, such as attack patterns and/or eject warp plasma. It should also add a small amount of speed (above 50 power) when your held like the [Aux] mod on engines. And possibly suggestion A and/or B.
Suggestion A: Increase the turn rate modifier.
Suggestion B: Rework the defense bonus so it does not cap until 125 power instead of being based on ship speed.

Auxiliary Subsystem: Increases the effectiveness of various boff abilities primarily science and healing. Sadly though unless your flying a torpedo boat it is difficult to justify having a high amount of power in this subsystem after feeding the other three.
Suggestion: As stated in the shield subystem allow it to increase shield regeneration rate. In addition it should add a small amount of hull resistance such as 25 at 125 power making it a better option.

I really think that would make all of the subsystems important and useful depending on your build and ship used.
I actually really like these suggestions. Though, i'd like more PVP'ers thoughts on them!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 3
09-25-2012, 08:23 AM
Let me start off with saying I agree with the general topic. The subsystem power mechanic as it is now doesn't offer too much variation.

But you've missed at least two points:
a) AUX is a lot better than you make it seem to be. Since shield absorption modifiers from different effects work multiplicatively, a ship running with STF-shield, EPtS and/or TSS actually benefits a lot less from higher shield power than from higher AUX, the shield power damage reduction only makes a very small difference after all the other reductions while the boost to your shield heals from AUX is quite considerable. Running both EPtS and TSS, shield power is actually more of a non-issue, while higher AUX becomes a lot more valuable.
Shield and AUX balance differs with builds, and actually differs with situations, too.
this point is flawed, see Edit below

b) You have four presets for energy settings for a reason. There are actually situations where switching between them will save you from destruction, and they're quite common in endgame situations (Fleet Events, STFs, PvP).
The simple truth: Sometimes you need to run! Sometimes you need to heal up, either yourself or an ally, or even an NPC. Running prevents deaths, healing teammates prevents their deaths (sometimes, and sometimes it's not worth to save them, but ... generally at least ), and healing NPCs can save objectives.
To survive when you pulled too much aggro at once, transfering power to engines/shield/aux becomes important. To heal, AUX becomes important.

It's just that we, the players, are often too lazy to actually make use of the options we have, especially when zerking down some STF works just as well, or at least: well enough. If we are honest though, a lot of times our runs would be smoother if we actually used the ability to switch power settings, and made use of Running and Healing ...
And as soon as we did do so, the different power subsystems all start to get a lot closer in importance, and the different presets would see more use.
There's just too little content that actually forces us to do so.
Even PvP doesn't help here, since it's currently just an enthusiast's niche, with little to gain from, and occuring very, very sporadically for the more casual crowd without access to premade/scheduled fights.

Edit: a) is actually wrong, as shown by bareel in the following posts. I mistakenly assumed EPtX scaled with AUX, which it doesn't - which makes the shield regeneration and damage reduction from high shield power out-perform the increase from TSS.

It DOES effect HE though, as it does effect most other Sci and Eng powers, and it does reduce hangar bay recharge timers, so it's still not entirely useless, at least for Sci- and Eng-based ships. Just less valuable than I argued.

Last edited by flekh; 09-26-2012 at 08:52 AM. Reason: fixed important typo, addendum
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,283
# 4
09-26-2012, 12:03 AM
Your premise is that full aux with STF shield will grant more tank than full shield power would when using TSS. Let us examine that statement and see if it is infact true (as I type this I do not know).

Ship: Cruiser with 1.0 shield mod
Shield: Maco Mk XII
Skills: All shield skills maxed.

TSS with shield at 125 and aux at 50
First lets see what our shield resist actually is, we got 10% from maco shield, 35% from shield power, and 7% from TSS.
(.9*.65*.93) = .54 damage received or 46% resistance.
TSS gives 449 shield once, 128 shield /sec for 15 seconds, and we get 2.5 pulses of our natural shield regen of (173 x 4) because of shield power or
499+(128*15)+(173*4*2.5) = 4099 raw shield restored over 15 seconds but with resist
4099 * 1.54 = 6312 effective shield.

TSS with shield at 50 and aux at 125
Resist is 10% from maco and 14.5% from TSS or 23% resistance
TSS gives 785 shield once, 224 shield /sec for 15 seconds, and 2.5 pulses of our natural shield regen of 173 for
4577 raw shield restored but with resist we get 5630.

Conclusion: Shield Power Wins. And that doesn't even take into consideration the other 30 seconds that TSS is not up and the AUX isn't doing much nor the ability to pop and AUX battery to get the best of both worlds.

It is flawed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 5
09-26-2012, 06:15 AM
whole post if flawed by a misconception, just skip ahead, nothing to see here ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Your premise is that full aux with STF shield will grant more tank than full shield power would when using TSS. Let us examine that statement and see if it is infact true (as I type this I do not know).
[...]
It is flawed.
Flawed is your math, and flawed are your prequisites.

-You forgot to include the 7.75% reduction from 50 shield power.

-You forgot to include EPtS, which has the heal component, the shield power bonus AND the shield damage reduction all scale with AUX. EPtS is actually the make-or-break for this scenario.
-Assumption is always max power to weapons. No more than 25 power to distribute either way.
-Assumption is also a raised power level to all systems from either M.A.C.O. shields or Plasmonic Leech, and of course Warp Core X and X Efficiency captain skills.
-Assumption should also be that the incoming damage is plasma type, for another 20% reduction, at least in STFs.

Not that you'd be totally wrong, with only TSS and shield power at extremely low, AUX can't make enough of a difference (it'd still be a bit closer) - but that's not even remotely a realistic setting.

In practice, it's a decision between ~80 Shields (25 base -> 50'ish from skills, +10(+) M.A.C.O./PL, +20'ish EPtS) and ~80 AUX (50 base -> 70'ish from skills, +10(+) M.A.C.O./PL) versus ~95 Shields (50 base -> 70'ish from skills, +10(+) M.A.C.O./PL, +15'ish EPtS) and ~60 AUX (25 base -> 50'ish from skills, +10(+) M.A.C.O./PL).
Plus ship type boni, of course ...
I'd have to look up more precise values ingame, but the general dimension should be correct for now.

Double EPtS and TSS, of course, so that'd be a ship like Any Carrier (not that there's any discussion about AUX > Shields here, AUX boosts all Sci powers and reduces hangar bay recharge time, so it'd win anyway), Any Sci Ship (same as above, AUX wins by default), Cruisers like the Ody, Bort or Galor that can run double TSS setups (and profit from higher AUX for their hull heals and Eng abilities, though that one's a bit closer than Sci), or simply an Advanced Escort or tank-BoP ('haven't really done the math for those yet, so if you revise yours I'm just as curious about the results, I'd guess it should be pretty close).

Results will differ depending on the total boost to system powers - at low levels, Shields will always win; inflate power levels enough though, and AUX draws ahead, it's not a static equation.

For a oh-crap tanking situations in PvE, there is no choice anyway - you max out both. PvP has healers (which max out both anyway, and need AUX to do their job) ... and for burst-tanking situations against an alpha strike in PvP, Shield will always win, since that's all about effective HP, and AUX trades effective HP for sustain.

Personally, I'd be too lazy to do the whole math on this - if done right, you end up with a tensor equation. I'll still prove-read any of yours, if you're less lazy. And maybe I'll supply a data point or two later today.

Last edited by flekh; 09-26-2012 at 09:01 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,283
# 6
09-26-2012, 07:40 AM
You started adding in modifications to your original statement there mate, originally you said EPTW was used and that is what I did the math with.

- Was not aware there was a 7.75% reduction at 50 shield power but it won't change results
- You said EPTW, but either way EPTS heal will have greater effect with higher resistance gained via shield power so no AUX will not win this way it will be further behind.
- Cruiser, EPTX ability or two, or batteries/etc allow for high power levels. Results would still be similar at 100 vs 100 though.
- Resistance stacks in a linear fashion and will effect both equally. Going from 0-50% resist and 50%-75% resist is the same effect.
- AUX has no effect on EPTX abilities, just AUX to XX abilities.

It. Is. Flawed.

*edit* Aux does not grant more sustain because of innate shield regen amounts.

Last edited by bareel; 09-26-2012 at 08:11 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 7
09-26-2012, 08:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
You started adding in modifications to your original statement there mate, originally you said EPTW was used and that is what I did the math with.

- Was not aware there was a 7.75% reduction at 50 shield power but it won't change results
- You said EPTW, but either way EPTS heal will have greater effect with higher resistance gained via shield power so no AUX will not win this way it will be further behind.
- Cruiser, EPTX ability or two, or batteries/etc allow for high power levels. Results would still be similar at 100 vs 100 though.
- Resistance stacks in a linear fashion and will effect both equally. Going from 0-50% resist and 50%-75% resist is the same effect.
- AUX has no effect on EPTX abilities, just AUX to XX abilities.

It. Is. Flawed.

*edit* Aux does not grant more sustain because of innate shield regen amounts.
Sorry, the EPtW instead of EptS was an honest typo. Could have been appearant from context, but not obvious enough, so ... yeah, my mistake.
And ... you're right with EPtX not affected by AUX, no clue how that brain-fart got in there. And since the issue really hinged on that one, I'll admit that I'm wrong. 'Will edit my previous post to reflect that.

Still leaves AUX as boosting Sci and Eng powers, and for hangar recharge, still leaving it at some importance.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,283
# 8
09-26-2012, 02:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
Sorry, the EPtW instead of EptS was an honest typo. Could have been appearant from context, but not obvious enough, so ... yeah, my mistake.
And ... you're right with EPtX not affected by AUX, no clue how that brain-fart got in there. And since the issue really hinged on that one, I'll admit that I'm wrong. 'Will edit my previous post to reflect that.

Still leaves AUX as boosting Sci and Eng powers, and for hangar recharge, still leaving it at some importance.
Its all good mate without your post I never would have done the math and learned what I learned. I know context in type is difficult and I'm not very well worded so if I come off as harsh I apologize as it is not intended.

And on that note I can very easily create a situation where AUX would win out by using an MVAE with TSS 3 and a bunch of shield heal skill consoles. And then do the same with a sci vessel sporting shield regen consoles and the omega shield to make shield power win out but those are simply beside my point.

In addition it is true that in specific situations engine power and aux are good to pump up, its just that I don't think it should be like that. I think it should depend on your ship and what abilities you are using on which ones should be prioritized the majority of the time and it isn't even remotely close to that.

I mean to me it seems absolutely insane that when using one of, if not the, best boff ability in the game for healing a shield that is heavily effected by AUX power that it would have a better effect with a high shield power than high aux. It shouldn't even be close or debatable that is so extremely counter-intuitive it makes my head hurt. And it's not even taking into account the 30 seconds after TSS runs out before you can use it again where shield power just keeps on regeneration your shield and increasing the resistance.

And the simple reason for that is high shield power throws in more modifiers that get multiplied and scale exponentially while the auxiliary bonus has a simple linear scaling. If you move shield regen to aux though you fix that issue.
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