Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,078
# 21
09-26-2012, 06:44 AM
Believe it or not the real problem with the sustain isn't even really the raw amount healed. Its the extremely high resist amounts that are so easy to get and maintain. 50% resistance on a shield granted by high shield power, STF shield, EPTS and maybe one other thing thrown in for fun DOUBLES the effectiveness of all shield regen and causes the true problem.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 22
09-26-2012, 08:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Believe it or not the real problem with the sustain isn't even really the raw amount healed. Its the extremely high resist amounts that are so easy to get and maintain. 50% resistance on a shield granted by high shield power, STF shield, EPTS and maybe one other thing thrown in for fun DOUBLES the effectiveness of all shield regen and causes the true problem.
Problem: Shield resistance is as much key to an Escort's survival as it is to a Cruiser's or Carrier's. Nerf at that point, and even a Cruiser will get one-shot by NPC ships they just barely survive at the moment. That'd really make them useless, as they'd lose their ability to successfully tank. Zerking with high burst-dps would be the only valid strategy left.
Not to mention the effects on solo-content.
That makes it something you can't change without completely re-balancing all PvE content.

For the moment, every ship still has some purpose. Limited, true, but still.
Of course, add another tier of levels, ships and powers, and the current system will inevitably break.
For the moment though, it's still working, even if barely.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 23
09-26-2012, 09:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
Hmmm ...
Does four-man'ing ISE count, with my Eng in her MAC being highest dps at ~3.5k (the fifth was too busy rolling need on all loot to ever leave spawn, so I won't count him), with optional successful?
...

Yes, you certainly can faceroll through any STF if everyone played at that level. Not with gimps that barely (or not even) out-dps a shuttle, but with people who can play, yes, easily.
It seems you and I have a different meaning for 'faceroll' . To me 'faceroll' implies that the STF is completed in the shortest amount of time possible with the least amount of risk to the player. Aka a full team of very high dps , high def rating escorts 'faceroll' an elite STF whereas a full team of cruisers or sci ships merely 'win' the elite stf albeit they take more time to do it.

This is why I say that increasing the challenge level is not the solution. DPS is -the- determining factor and raising the difficulty so that escorts are 'challenged' only makes it three times harder for non-escort ships. The result is a reliance on having escorts in a team to accomplish anything.

Quote:
Ummm ... right ... because it totally makes no difference to have shields reduce incoming damage by another 20%, or your heals clocking in at nearly twice the effect. That certainly won't keep you alive any longer than to just keep shooting ... Oh, wait! I does!
C'mon, you have to be kidding me. At full Shields and AUX you can tank through a lot of stuff that'd simply kill you on full Weapons. Especially in PvP, but also in PvE when you pulled a but more aggro than you intended (*caugh* Starbase Defense *caugh* or KASE if you're tanking the spawning Nanites, or ...)
The effect of max shield power now is nothing compared to how it used to be. To give you an example, my tier 5 Nebula at max shield power literally tanked 3 escorts (and good ones) in pvp without having to use heals. The shield setting alone provided a tremendous boost to regeneration (back then shield emitter stat was almost double in effectiveness). It was only when those 3 escorts coordinated a run on one of my shield facings that they could truly hurt it.

Try doing that today with the half-strength shield emitter effectiveness and 5X powered up weapon stats in the 3 escorts.

You focus too much on individual things and in my opinion you miss how things work together to form a complete system. Think on my nebula example above. If a science ship with full power to shields and high aux made a very strong shield tank it allowed it to use its sci boff slots for healing others or for science abilities ( as I mentioned earlier, sci ships could at best focus on one role well or on two 'decently'). It could BE a science ship.

Today when you say 'tank' it means you absolutely must be running multiple shield abilities on top of your shield power on high because the abilities are in a way, 'making up' for the half strength shield emitter skill effectiveness post-f2p. Result? Your science ship barely does science. Most of the sci slots must be reserved for self preservation and you're left with what is effectively a slow ship with the least amount of weapons running on relatively low weapon power... a burden to the team and which contributes poorly to overall dps and effectiveness.


Quote:
This is where you really lost me. Escorts tank better than Cruisers? WTF?
Cruiser can move, too, you know? The defense bonus cap for Cruisers isn't that much lower than for Escorts either. And even with APO and Evasive trait, you'll still get hit in an Escort - the difference being that if that happens, the Escort goes *BOOM* and the Cruiser gets to heal up from 30% HP left. Well, unless it's one of those 300k+ Torp Spreads that can even one-shot my KDF Sci's Vo'quv ...
Still, have you tried tanking Donatra in an Escort? *BOOM*! A gate? *BOOM*! Escorts can be tanky, but against serious bosses, they make for nice firework. A well-build Cruiser can tank them without a single death. 'Been there, done that, on both sides of the Cruiser/Escort split.
Before we run into another terminology confusion:

'Tank' = keep enemy focus on you and survive being attention of that focus as long as possible.

Thats what tank means. Tanking can be done through taking damage and surviving it (meat tank) or by avoiding getting hit and being able to heal the few hits that do get through (dodge tank).

Obsviously an escort will not meat tank like a cruiser nor a cruiser dodge tank like an escort. Cruisers and Escorts combine a little bit of both in this game but ultimately the escort has the upper hand in what 'tanking' is about. They keep the attention of the target and survive its attacks...while dealing heavy damage in return.

I run a VoQuv 'meat' tank that can survive the infected gate+tac cube+spheres all at once for ..almost forever (except for that super torpedo you mentioned..geez i hate that crap). I also can speed tank in my advanced escort and not get thumped in the same situation. The adv. escort, when kitted to speed tank can do the same thing just by keeping its speed very high through various means and using it to control the distance the enemy is at... and do much higher damage than the meat tank in the process. Armitage goes ridiculously ballistic... it can run permanent 140% defense rating before any boff ability or capt ability bonuses stacking on it.

Quote:
And ... comparing a TR1 to what you can do with Grav-Well or Tiken's? Seriously? Grav-well keeps complete spawn-waves locked down. Tiken's shuts down complete waves, and even STF bosses - no shields, no weapons, no movement! And a Sci Ship can carry three of those, not just one!
Are you even playing this game?
You do notice grav well even with 9 in graviton, 9 in particle and consoles still allows ship to leave its tractor effect under minimal engine power in just a few seconds after being pulled in? Sure, its effective ONLY to cluster ships into a small group but not to 'hold' them. It merely delays them a few seconds more. Grav well has been nerfed to utterly stupid levels. So yes, for CROWD control a repulsor beam pushing ships 20km away every 30 seconds gains the team a minute+ of time is more effective than a grav well that holds the ships for a few seconds. Tyken's rift III does not shut down a boss for more than a couple of seconds and since it has virtually no tractor pull the ships do fly off its range rather quickly. Sci ships can carry three.. but use only one tyken or grav well at a time and repulsors can be carried by any ship so thats a rather moot point for it being a 'sci ship' benefit.


Quote:
You want the game back to the old mechanics. Fine, I get that. But you won't get the devs to do so if you're making up arguments. If you're making Sci look super-gimped far beyond reality. They're not THAT dumb.
Or ... are you actually believing the stuff you just said? That'd be ...
You believe sci is ok as it is and needs a little improvement. I'm merely telling you what it used to be and how it has been lowered to its current laughable state as a 'class' in the game. You seem to fully accept the current escort-centric focus of the game and that sci should merely be a sub-class that provides 'tools' for the weapon systems... I on the other hand believe sci (and engineer) should return to BEING a functional, independent class in the game. Right now it is not. The only truly functional, independent class is tactical. Just because you can 'win' a map in a sub-class doesn't mean there is nothing wrong with it... particularly when you see tactical utterly dominate same map with little effort much faster.

..and for the record, the devs aren't dumb. They simply ceased to focus on game balance and focused on cash generation as ordered by PWE. That is why i'm also telling you this will never, ever happen. All we will see in the future is more firepower, more dps-centric maps and content.
http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 24
09-26-2012, 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
It seems you and I have a different meaning for 'faceroll' . To me 'faceroll' implies that the STF is completed in the shortest amount of time possible with the least amount of risk to the player. Aka a full team of very high dps , high def rating escorts 'faceroll' an elite STF whereas a full team of cruisers or sci ships merely 'win' the elite stf albeit they take more time to do it.

This is why I say that increasing the challenge level is not the solution. DPS is -the- determining factor and raising the difficulty so that escorts are 'challenged' only makes it three times harder for non-escort ships. The result is a reliance on having escorts in a team to accomplish anything.
Nah, our definitions don't really divert much.
I just put a bit more emphasis on the "least amount of risk" part, while you emphasize the "shortest amount of time" part.
Five cruisers would still have no real challenge, and it'd be impossible for them to die except from one-shot hits. Five Sci would actually shut down everything, with grav wells and tiken's all over the place constantly. The Sci version is actually the least risk possible, it'd just be shooting at immobile objects.
Of course I didn't go out of my way to recruit a group of science ships or cruiser to actually go through with that - it'd be quite a pain to get such a group going, especially since decent players are rare. The examples served to showcase why I'm sure it's still possible.
Currently, the only thing that sometimes distracts me from watching TV or browsing forums while playing STFs is not the game, it's the players you get set up with if using the queue instead of premade/channel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
The effect of max shield power now is nothing compared to how it used to be. To give you an example, my tier 5 Nebula at max shield power literally tanked 3 escorts (and good ones) in pvp without having to use heals. The shield setting alone provided a tremendous boost to regeneration (back then shield emitter stat was almost double in effectiveness). It was only when those 3 escorts coordinated a run on one of my shield facings that they could truly hurt it.

Try doing that today with the half-strength shield emitter effectiveness and 5X powered up weapon stats in the 3 escorts.
That's actually a good example: unfortunately, an example for why it got changed. Overpowered.
I still not saying the current system is good. But the old one wasn't working too well, either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
You focus too much on individual things and in my opinion you miss how things work together to form a complete system. Think on my nebula example above. If a science ship with full power to shields and high aux made a very strong shield tank it allowed it to use its sci boff slots for healing others or for science abilities ( as I mentioned earlier, sci ships could at best focus on one role well or on two 'decently'). It could BE a science ship.

Today when you say 'tank' it means you absolutely must be running multiple shield abilities on top of your shield power on high because the abilities are in a way, 'making up' for the half strength shield emitter skill effectiveness post-f2p. Result? Your science ship barely does science. Most of the sci slots must be reserved for self preservation and you're left with what is effectively a slow ship with the least amount of weapons running on relatively low weapon power... a burden to the team and which contributes poorly to overall dps and effectiveness.
Having to dedicate some resources to self-preservation is actually a good thing. As is getting rid of the healer role, a role very few people enjoy, and that's still mandatory to have in many games. Self-reliance is a better approach, if only to allow for more variable group compositions. Even getting rid of the tank role could be justified. I certainly don't disagree with that part of STO's changes.

I'll agree though that the part dedicated to ship role should be more prominent, and actually make more of a difference both for playstyle and effectiveness.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Before we run into another terminology confusion:

'Tank' = keep enemy focus on you and survive being attention of that focus as long as possible.

Thats what tank means. Tanking can be done through taking damage and surviving it (meat tank) or by avoiding getting hit and being able to heal the few hits that do get through (dodge tank).

Obsviously an escort will not meat tank like a cruiser nor a cruiser dodge tank like an escort. Cruisers and Escorts combine a little bit of both in this game but ultimately the escort has the upper hand in what 'tanking' is about. They keep the attention of the target and survive its attacks...while dealing heavy damage in return.

I run a VoQuv 'meat' tank that can survive the infected gate+tac cube+spheres all at once for ..almost forever (except for that super torpedo you mentioned..geez i hate that crap). I also can speed tank in my advanced escort and not get thumped in the same situation. The adv. escort, when kitted to speed tank can do the same thing just by keeping its speed very high through various means and using it to control the distance the enemy is at... and do much higher damage than the meat tank in the process. Armitage goes ridiculously ballistic... it can run permanent 140% defense rating before any boff ability or capt ability bonuses stacking on it.
Yup, that's the tank I meant.
Last time I checked though, neither my Advanced Escort nor my Hegh'ta could get anywhere near invincible. I'm consistently running into the defense cap at 24 impulse speed, and about 77.7% defense (6 points in maneuvers, elusive trait). Sure, I could add an Aegis for another 10%, but ...
140% defense on an Armitage? I don't own one yet, so ... please explain that one, that sounds beyond broken if true.
If I'm really missing something here, and it's possible to get past 100% defense permenantly, then yes, I'll yield this point to you. That'd be ... totally broken, nothing less.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
You do notice grav well even with 9 in graviton, 9 in particle and consoles still allows ship to leave its tractor effect under minimal engine power in just a few seconds after being pulled in? Sure, its effective ONLY to cluster ships into a small group but not to 'hold' them. It merely delays them a few seconds more. Grav well has been nerfed to utterly stupid levels. So yes, for CROWD control a repulsor beam pushing ships 20km away every 30 seconds gains the team a minute+ of time is more effective than a grav well that holds the ships for a few seconds. Tyken's rift III does not shut down a boss for more than a couple of seconds and since it has virtually no tractor pull the ships do fly off its range rather quickly. Sci ships can carry three.. but use only one tyken or grav well at a time and repulsors can be carried by any ship so thats a rather moot point for it being a 'sci ship' benefit.
They actually work quite well in STFs. Especially if chained, and even better with more than one Sci in place. Tyken's drain on engines prevents movement quite well. But yeah, lots of other mobs recently got evasives.
But at least for Nanite Probes and Spheres in ISE, for Probes in KASE, and BoPs/Raptors/Negh'var in CSE, you can chain-anomaly the mobs indefinetly, at least at higher AUX levels.
If we're talkin PvP though, then yes, that's not the place for Grav-wells or Tyken's. PvP is Viral Matrix, Tractor Repulsors, Tractor Beams, with an occasional Shockwave. These tools work quite well in PvP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
You believe sci is ok as it is and needs a little improvement. I'm merely telling you what it used to be and how it has been lowered to its current laughable state as a 'class' in the game. You seem to fully accept the current escort-centric focus of the game and that sci should merely be a sub-class that provides 'tools' for the weapon systems... I on the other hand believe sci (and engineer) should return to BEING a functional, independent class in the game. Right now it is not. The only truly functional, independent class is tactical. Just because you can 'win' a map in a sub-class doesn't mean there is nothing wrong with it... particularly when you see tactical utterly dominate same map with little effort much faster.

..and for the record, the devs aren't dumb. They simply ceased to focus on game balance and focused on cash generation as ordered by PWE. That is why i'm also telling you this will never, ever happen. All we will see in the future is more firepower, more dps-centric maps and content.
No, I don't want to defend the "escort-centric focus". I'm saying that Sci and Eng, Sci Ships and Cruisers aren't broken - yet. They are fully capable of handling everything thrown at them, and if they make use of their abilities, can do so in quite competetive time.
I'll not defend that you have to build them very much akin to how you build Escorts to achieve that, that is indeed something that needs looking into. I'll not defend the dumbing down of the game, nor do I defend the lack of unique gameplay. These are all valid complaints.
And I'll not deny that if Cryptic/PWE does not make major changes, the combat system will inevitably break when even more powerful ships get released ... which is pretty much inevitable, too, for cash generation.

Really, lots of valid complaints.
But if you keep telling me that Sci/Sci is useless, or that Eng/Cruiser is useless and broken ... then I'll have to argue. That's simply not true, easily disproven by combat parses and actual experience. Any Escort I've run into yet still ended up dead when pulling aggro, while my tank-spec'ed Cruiser and Carrier usually survive (stupid one-shot torpedoes ...). Neither is the dps gap as huge as you make it seem, nor are Sci and Eng abilities gimped that far.
At least: not yet.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 82
# 25
09-26-2012, 11:52 AM
Neither of you understand facerolling.

It has nothing to do with the time it takes to complete something or the risk involved.

Facerolling is a hyperbole meant symbolize the complete lack of challenge involved in content. In other words, content in STO is so damn easy that one can literally roll their face across the keyboard and still be successful.

In short, the PvE in this game presents no challenge at any point on any difficulty.

That's what facerolling is.

Behold:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=faceroll

Quote:
CONNOTATION

This is a hyperbolic, humorous term used to imply that certain kinds of play are overpowered (i.e. unfair), very easy (again in contrast to others), or are marked by being devoid of any strategy. That is to say, you can play the game successfully (1) without looking at the screen and (2) by hitting random keys (with your face.)

The term faceroll can be used as generally derogatory or inflammatory, as it is essentially a personal attack devaluing the video game developers's judgment.

Evolution of the use of the term into gamer lexicon demonstrates the term can simply be used humorously as an absurdity (to alleviate tension rather than create an indictment.)

Last edited by cavadus; 09-26-2012 at 11:54 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 26
09-26-2012, 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavadus View Post
Neither of you understand facerolling.

It has nothing to do with the time it takes to complete something or the risk involved.

Facerolling is a hyperbole meant symbolize the complete lack of challenge involved in content. In other words, content in STO is so damn easy that one can literally roll their face across the keyboard and still be successful.

In short, the PvE in this game presents no challenge at any point on any difficulty.

That's what facerolling is.

Behold:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=faceroll
*sigh*
Technically correct.
And incredibly not helpful.
Hell, I was tempted to make a snide comment along that line, too - I just skipped it and tried to go with cmdrskyfaller's attempt to qualify it.

Because ... well ... the literal approach usually doesn't work.
Movement - that always screws it up.
Though STO gets pretty close to the literal meaning of facerolling anyway: Steer with mouse, bind every key on your keyboard with the usual "FirePhaser $$ +TrayExecByTray x y $$ +Tray[...]"-command (that's currently only sitting on my Num2 -> 2-button on my Naga) ... and actually faceroll. No problem.
Well, except for the steering.

But, if we go one step deeper, and actually try to qualify it ... then we end up with things like:
- Ease of play (see above, keybinds FTW)
- Risk (see far above, can be totally eliminated)
- Speed (cmdrskyfaller's issue with my facerolling classification).
See? We just skipped a post.

But yeah, thanks for the input, very helpful indeed.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 27
09-26-2012, 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
*sigh*
Technically correct.
And incredibly not helpful.
heehee I love it. wheres the thumbs up emoticon?
http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,078
# 28
09-26-2012, 03:23 PM
Best = Quickest way to smash the monster and get the reward. That would be the escort.

Healer/CC/Etc = Unneeded. Any amount that is needed in PvE can be supplied just fine by the high DPS little ships without slowing the killing speed. They all have 4-5 low level slots to fill up with 'em.


I personally feel guilty when I fly a non escort/carrier/DHC cruiser in an elite STF because I know I am not nearly as helpful to my team. I borderline feel like I'm trolling.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 999
# 29
09-27-2012, 05:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
There are several problems facing sci skills.

The huge variance is potential effects.
How do you balance out a skill when it can be used at 50 aux power and 0 skill, and when it can be used at 250 skill at 125 aux power? Good luck.

Tac Captain Abilities
Then add to that the skill needs to be balanced dealing its normal damage and dealing 2.5 times its normal damage with these abilities active. Good luck.

Nah, much easier to nerf them into the ground and not worry about it...
1. Same way you balance the weapons/torpedoes. Nobody expects to shred the opposition when you have no tac skill and 25 weapon power. Guns are (for the most part) balanced, so put the balance guy to work on this...

2. Detach science damages from the Tactical boosters. Why should fancy maneuvers and weak spot targetting boost the damage from a black hole or pulses of energy that are flying back down an energy trail? 50 aux 0 skill tac boosted GW I should not beat a fully skilled 125 aux GW III from a dedicated Sci...
Well, with the upgrade announcement leaving NX and Connie fans in the dust again, can we restart / revisit the T5 Connie and NX threads - since they will no longer be "truly" endgame ships... (after we get the T5 versions, it'll be time to see them added to the T5U upgrade charts too...
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,078
# 30
09-27-2012, 05:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dareau View Post
1. Same way you balance the weapons/torpedoes. Nobody expects to shred the opposition when you have no tac skill and 25 weapon power. Guns are (for the most part) balanced, so put the balance guy to work on this...

2. Detach science damages from the Tactical boosters. Why should fancy maneuvers and weak spot targetting boost the damage from a black hole or pulses of energy that are flying back down an energy trail? 50 aux 0 skill tac boosted GW I should not beat a fully skilled 125 aux GW III from a dedicated Sci...
1) Incorrect for so many reasons I shall list just a few
- Weapons are not balanced (DHC vs HC, beam energy drain vs cannon, FAW vs CRF)
- Energy weapon damage gains the largest % boost from energy system not skills/etc
- Every ship has guns, therefore every player has gun skills
- Guns and damage by extension is not a binary system. I do not know the proper term for what they are but basically it comes down to in the end is my damage > your healing with a huge number of things effecting the outcome and in PvE the only concern is how much you can deal to kill the target quickly.
- Sci effects are 'largely' binary in nature. Gravity Well either holds the target or it does not. Viral Matrix either shuts down the target long enough or it doesn't. etc.
*edit add*
I was trying to think of how to put this in a better way but this is the best way I can explain it. The amount of change you will see when completely min/maxing your damage with weapons compared to min/maxing the effectiveness of exotic abilities is not even close. Your tac consoles are going to be damage boosters their is no other option. Your Weapon Energy is going to be max 90% of the time and if you don't max the low level skills that increase weapon damage your crazy. Your Tac boff abilities are going to be used to increase your damage aside from tac team which does boost your damage anyway.
On the other hand their is competition and a 'cost' that you must pay for improving 'exotic' abilities. The skills effecting them may not effecting anything else that you use. Aux power doesn't have much benefit after you use the abilities. The more sci skill boost consoles you use the less impressive your tank becomes. The more exotic boff abilities you are packing the fewer self heals you have.
So how do you allow, with the huge variance in the amount of focus one could place on such abilities, balance them at the low end, mid range, and when min/maxed? The player who sacrifices everything to make them as strong as possible, the player who uses them as backup but not a focus, and the odd ship packing just one. I have more faith in the US congress passing a long term balanced budget that doesn't screw over anyone and doesn't raise taxes than in Cryptic finding a good balance with the mechanics they use.
*end edit*

2) Good luck, every single time it is proposed all you hear is complaints for the most part. I do agree with you but that is not enough to fix the problem.


The simple fact of the matter is that there are 3 possibilities for sci/exotic effects in this game with the current mechanics
1) Overpowered
2) Underpowered
3) Sometimes Situationally Useful
Along with a few potential adjectives attached
1) When min/maxed out the wazoo
2) When not min/maxed out the wazoo
3) Always

Every single binary exotic ability has always fallen into one of those categories and always will until the mechanics are changed. The only powers that are consistently fairly well balanced in PvE (not PvP) are the energy drain abilities because they are not completely binary or the ones used to deal damage primarily and/or shield stripping (another form of damage) and even those are rarely, if ever, balanced in PvE and PvP at the same time.

I have made a few threads on the subject of changing the mechanics and systems in an attempt to improve the foundation because it is the only real way to fix it.

Last edited by bareel; 09-27-2012 at 05:56 AM.
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