Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 176
# 11
09-27-2012, 09:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by voporak View Post
Fleet ships. All the dilithium required means the purchase of zen for it. And the fleet ship modules. As I was battling my friend with my Fleet Defiant 'Pay to Win!' screamed through my head. With my ship, I am at a position to see P2W in it's full ugliness. If you want to win... you must pay. And that is exactly what people do, leaving others without the best ships in the dust.
Power creep is an unfortunate reality of a game with STO's model, I can live with some one forking over 20$ in fleet modules and ungodly amounts of dil for a P2W ship that's only got a 10% bonus on two or three attributes. Pilot skill accounts for more than that and the game needs an income.

That doesn't mean other ships/builds need to be as close to worthless as they are now. Your story about your friend brought this to mind Voporak. I had a PVP "capture and hold" match earlier today where 2 experienced cruiser pilots (one Tac in a regent, one sci in a sci ody, we're decent but not elite) working together couldn't drop a Jem'hadar bug. Even when a third cruiser pilot jumped in, after a few minutes, the Bug still wouldn't go down, in the end it took three cruisers and an escort(another bug) with a Tac pilot to drop that one ship. We only won the match because the bug's team mates were obviously new to PVP, that is ridiculous.

BTW, Capture and hold is one of the few things I think a cruiser can still kind of excel at.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,122
# 12
09-27-2012, 09:33 PM
Well, I'm actually close to a point where I utterly stop caring. Since the switch to F2P I refuse to pay a single cent for this game (since they stole away my VA Gal-R XD). It is a shooting game, only built towards shooting things. Naturally everything which does a lot of damage outclasses anything else, but why those DD classes are able to equally tank damage is beyond my comprehension and don't let me start arguing beyond gameplay balance. Because, if we are honest, a "escort" should not be able to deal with a cruiser, escept if they ambush it with shields down. Cruisers should battle cruisers while escorts would have to fight other escorts first and then use flanking manneuvers assisted by science vessels to weaken the enemy while the cruisers also pack the most punch in their attacks to strike the killing blow. Because why should I waste my energy on a cruiser which can tank but not damage my ship? I pick off the DD and then care about the useless hulk in front of me. That's not how that works.

I don't get why on earth this game has to be "blanced" with 1on1 encounters in mind, because B'rel pilots want to battle an Galaxy Class in a "fair fight" - THIS WOULDN'T BE A "FAIR FIGHT". A small vessel would need assistance, a cruiser in battle would need escorts and so on. So, when they finally went all the way to P2W county every hope was lost. New ships will always be better so people will buy them, period.
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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 262
# 13
09-27-2012, 09:43 PM
The FED cruisers are a joke, I would love to have a fed version of the Vor'cha.

Last edited by mondoid; 09-27-2012 at 09:48 PM. Reason: does not want to get banned
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 997
# 14
09-27-2012, 10:36 PM
This is the thread you should have made instead of the joke Galaxy one. There is definitely an imbalance in ship design in the game.

How do we adress it, is it the fault of P2W or untested mechanics?

I personally think its just misadjusted mechanics. All the fleet ships that give many of us the ability to fly our favs at end game is a true gift. Its the perfect game universe idea for the everymans star trek game. Size is the only factor. Without them lock box ships would be the undeniable king of pvp.

That said, cruisers and sci ships are under powered. With what we saw in DS9 and Voyager, its easy to understand why escorts do all the damage. And so, I personally want all fed cruisers to get an hp boost, and a larger energy boost to all subsystems, include the boost to ones you can buff like inertial dampers.

Many of the best star trek battles with cruisers involved the drama of staying alive long enough for help, lining up the perfect shot, or using some trick. I think the devs did a good job with intent when it comes to how they play, but fell short of how long they could really last.

Sci ships are a different matter, I think they should definitely get a bigger boost to aux power, but im not really sure what else. I feel like in multiplayer they dont use the tractor beam abilities enough, which can put an escort in an extremely bad situation to great effect. Since the maneuvers and actual movement play such a big part in their tanking style, maybe some more area control style abilities are needed. A tholian web style wall that does good damage if you pass through it, but hurts allies too? Maybe they could expand energy draining abilities to target individual subsystems like weapons or shields. Honestly the number of ways they could buff science are gigantic. Maybe il come back to this if I can scrounge up some more.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 162
# 15
09-27-2012, 10:49 PM
While Id have to go add it up, in the first few months I know I spent around $200 on this game. But, now I Doff and Play a daily here and there.

At one point had each toon in an escort because thats really the best ship for majority of gameplay.

But, now Im back in Cruisers, and rarely play. Cruisers suck as a whole. The Tactical Bortasqu is the only cruiser that really works IMO. and being a trek fan I WANT to fly cruisers even though I know Id do everything better in an escort.

Im looking for a new game to play at this point. Still enjoy short sessions here and there. But looks like theyre done with content, and just gonna keep pumping out new ships. Power creep really only makes sense if the game had a good PVP component, which it doesn't.

1 vs 1 cruiser vs Escort shouldn't be a balanced battle. A Stalemate.
Escorts should be glass cannons, but theyre far from it. They can tank and do the best damage with the best turn. So why do cruisers even exist at this point?
Only reason I still log in is there arent enough "ship Battle" games around that are any good.
I re downloaded the 2 games I played before this one and giving them another shot. sigh.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 179
# 16
09-27-2012, 10:53 PM
I'm gonna say this, and probably get rage fisted for it too...

:bigbreath:
I think the cruisers are working as intended, from a gameplay perspective. When you see a properly tanked oddy/bortasqu (and now the fleet galaxy retrofit and fleet neg'var should be able too do this too) tank ten players and come out with around 70% hull, you know those ships can do something right. It's a ton of fun going into an STF, and taking all aggro, and KNOWING you and all your friends are going too come out alive.

And it's even better too watch your hull stay above 75% even when you're taking all the damage. And you know all your teammates are watching you and going "Daaaaaaaaaang"

Actually, my oddy has gotten so good at tanking I'm known in my fleet as "The Survivor"
I AM THE HARBINGER OF HOPE!
I AM THE SWORD OF THE RIGHTOUS!
Ensign
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 12
# 17
09-27-2012, 11:00 PM
I honestly agree with some of the statements before we need things that are more then fighting in this game. I know I know fighting is what typically sells, but in all of star trek its not all about fighting. Its about exploring and learning, solving mysteries finding new things getting poison by flowers and what not. The exploration and science pare has pretty much been completely left out. Take a lesson from flash trek refueling you ships and being about to allocate power made those pretty fun. Typical games might be all about fighting but star trek wasn't, and the fans of star trek(the only reason this game was made to start) know that. There are plenty of other space combat games to play, but I came here because i was hoping to be able to fly around and go explore nebula's and new worlds strange people.. otherwise I would have just stuck with one of the other hundreds of combat games out there. Not saying I dont like the combat, I just wish there was more to it. Also would be cool to send and receive distress signals from other players, and hail other plays a view screen come up with their captain and crew showing.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 18
09-27-2012, 11:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by veraticus View Post
I'm saying that you are OK with paying for your toon over and over and over and over and over and over again! What other MMO or even game that is actually taken seriously or is trying to actually make a real name for itself in any kind of market does that?!
No paying a subscription fee is not the same thing. These guys are taking your money on the BASIS OF AN IMBALANCED SHIP DESIGN!

The ships are a Pay to Win system. It is a system that is designed to purposely separate you and your money on the base human want to be better than someone else, or to have something that someone else does not. To WIN!

They will not change the system so long as people continue to pay them money for a purposely designed pay to win system.
I now see what you mean, forgive my earlier rudeness. And as much as I hate to do it, I must agree. And it kinda sickens me a little... I have grown rather fond of this Star Trek Based... excuse me, money based game. (for the record I am F2P XD)

Quote:
Originally Posted by voporak View Post
As the user of a Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit (the introduction of this and the Jem'hadar attack ship upgrade just kicked the bucket on balance), let me offer my view.

I battled my friend's new lobi store temporal ship today (I forgot the class of ship... the fed one), and what I saw was appalling in terms of balance. I was utterly dominating. I tanked her ship, a photonic fleet, and her two past/future ally ships. My ship, the smallest of them all, held up against them. A dual beam bank overload to the past ship finished up the battle. It was just a joke. I was overwhelmingly superpowered.

Cruisers can sit there, heal, draw aggro, but in the end are just useless for damage. Pitted against a cruiser, my Defiant could probably hold its own against it, and simply follow behind the whale, cannons blazing. It's just a joke, with five tactical consoles, the best turn rate, and a subspace jump my ship is nearly unstoppable. Where are the Deferi and their balance when you need them?

Science ships. Need I say more? Next to useless.

At this point in time, if you want to even be able to win you've gotta be a tactical captain in an escort (which I happen to be). It's just unfair to engineers and poor sciences get thrown the moldiest cookie of all. For the sake of balance... fix this!

Did I mention that in Kerrat today I tanked two or three Fed cruisers in my Defiant at once?
I think I can kind of rest my case after this input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by insanerandomnes View Post
I'm gonna say this, and probably get rage fisted for it too...

:bigbreath:
I think the cruisers are working as intended, from a gameplay perspective. When you see a properly tanked oddy/bortasqu (and now the fleet galaxy retrofit and fleet neg'var should be able too do this too) tank ten players and come out with around 70% hull, you know those ships can do something right. It's a ton of fun going into an STF, and taking all aggro, and KNOWING you and all your friends are going too come out alive.

And it's even better too watch your hull stay above 75% even when you're taking all the damage. And you know all your teammates are watching you and going "Daaaaaaaaaang"

Actually, my oddy has gotten so good at tanking I'm known in my fleet as "The Survivor"
You won't get fisted for it, not even by the original poster with his massive rant. And I thank you for your input. I see what you mean, and I rather enjoy your statement as well. But you're merely proving my point. You remember in my initial post " Why did you only give us a shield with no sword?" Well your statement just proved that. We have our shield. We have our armor. We are ready to go into battle. But many cruiser pilots want our sword as well. Let us deal damage in addition to taking it. I believe I even put in another thread that I expected the highest tier cruisers to be like Apocalypse Tanks from Red Alert 2. We go nowhere fast (which is true), can take a TON of punishment (which is also true), but when we get there, everything, it's mother, cousin twice removed, and it's pet cat all die (noooot quite so true XD). However I would also expect us to be susceptible to swarmers (which ironically cruisers are the best at killing masses of fighters, torps, etc BFAW, the disco ball of death XD). But you are right. They fill their current role wonderfully. It's just that not all of us are satisfied being just a damage sponge.

I love the Star Trek cruisers. They are the things I think of when I think of Star Trek (that is after I think of the single Nicor Class Undine Cruiser PWNING a dozen cubes by it's lonesome, sorry to say, that was just an AWESOME sight). I am not asking that they be overpowered, that they then become the ONLY ship you should use, since that would be boring... but I do ask that they at least be given back SOME of the glory they have rightfully earned (since after all, how many other ships made as much money as the original NCC-1701, or even the Enterprise D?) That's all I ask.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,030
# 19
09-28-2012, 12:59 AM
there is no need for a rewamp of such a magnitude...
as i see it, there are some cruisers on fed side that are just extremely gimped...other work fine in the role they were intended.
Maybe a turnrate and a inertia boost across the bord would be already enough, so they don't feel so extremely clumsy.
Cruisers are meant as tanks, thats what they are designed for, and i like it that way actually. Right now they feel and play very different from escorts.

Only sci ships are kind of..."hmm, not really a reason to pick one up"
sci ships have a high potential as support ships or even dmg dealers, but the sci powers are so drastically gimped it hurts to look at them. Why it was established that tac captain buffs actually buff sci powers like no others is beyond me, and that should be reverted.
All sci powers from ltdcmdr up, should get an inherent boost. Meaning a gravity well 3, should be a deathtrap for any ship below 25k hull. Right now those commander powers are just too weak to make an significant impact.
Go pro or go home

Last edited by baudl; 09-28-2012 at 01:02 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 366
# 20
09-28-2012, 01:28 AM
Cruiser work pretty well, I think. In damage and in tanking. I'm an engineering captain and yesterday I fought in Ker'rat as red-Fed in my Galaxy against a Defiant, two Galaxies and admiral(!) in D'Kora. I tanked them all and killed them all. Ok, they were lousy PvPers, but still - 1 vs 4, among them an escort (pretty good one, had to be killed first) and still won. In a cruiser.

I also got 1v1 against P2W ships - Tactical Excelsior (also captain) and never felt that I was underpowered compared to C-Store (so P2W) ship. Some Klinks intervened but had they not I would be able to hold off him and, if I had enough luck - kill him to. Or die - it was even fight. Still: free ship vs P2W one can be a fair fight.

In the end it all comes to the captain skill. I'm not some super-PvPer, I got my ass handed to me often enough, but I'm also good enough to win against some good players in ships that are P2W and/or support my team if I have one.

Escorts pack a lot of peak damage, but are susceptible to damage over time. You just need enough patience to outlast them. Don't kow how it will look against Jem'Hadar bug or Fleet escorts - never fought them, but I doubt it will be all that different.
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