Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,556
# 21
09-28-2012, 02:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarathos1978 View Post
Cruiser work pretty well, I think. In damage and in tanking. I'm an engineering captain and yesterday I fought in Ker'rat as red-Fed in my Galaxy against a Defiant, two Galaxies and admiral(!) in D'Kora. I tanked them all and killed them all. Ok, they were lousy PvPers, but still - 1 vs 4, among them an escort (pretty good one, had to be killed first) and still won. In a cruiser.

I also got 1v1 against P2W ships - Tactical Excelsior (also captain) and never felt that I was underpowered compared to C-Store (so P2W) ship. Some Klinks intervened but had they not I would be able to hold off him and, if I had enough luck - kill him to. Or die - it was even fight. Still: free ship vs P2W one can be a fair fight.

In the end it all comes to the captain skill. I'm not some super-PvPer, I got my ass handed to me often enough, but I'm also good enough to win against some good players in ships that are P2W and/or support my team if I have one.

Escorts pack a lot of peak damage, but are susceptible to damage over time. You just need enough patience to outlast them. Don't kow how it will look against Jem'Hadar bug or Fleet escorts - never fought them, but I doubt it will be all that different.

i think they are all scaled to your level in kerrat, or you are to theirs. Or maybe that excelsior was the commander version...hardly a p2w ship.

and yes...en engi in a galaxy that killed off 4 others...they must have been real bad PVP players. You are in for a surprise once you hit max lvl and enter kerrat.

i guess you are above average, just as me when it comes to PVP. And i had the same experiance when i leveled my last toon and entered some PVP matches. 80% of the matches i made all the kills or 13 to 14. And i didn't lose a single FED vs FED...only 2 or 3 arenas against klingons i lost.
I know for a fact that many of those players are not even new to the game...there are just generally very unskilled players out there.

and as you said...it depends on the captain, since there are cruisers out there that can do some impressive damage while tanking anything, but still within the boundrys of a cruiser. Imagine those captains gaining access to even more firepower. would make other ships obsolete.
Go pro or go home
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 363
# 22
09-28-2012, 02:26 AM
Quote:
You are in for a surprise once you hit max lvl and enter kerrat.
Doubt it. Play this game since pre-F2P, fought in Ker'rat with Sovereign, free-Odie, Prometheus, Fleet Escort (before it became Patrol Escort) and DSSV in times when death by SCIENCE! was still possible. Only thing that could suprise me are the fleet ships as I still have to fight one (and new Jem bug if it was really upgraded somehow).
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 286
# 23
09-28-2012, 06:47 AM
Good points by the OP. Another way of looking at it is that the three types of ships haven't been properly built (by cryptic not the players) to support their clearly defined roles. Here's my comment on this issue from another post. I apologize in advance for it's wordiness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonulinu2 View Post
Escorts are fun ships beloved by many right now. It's taken time and Cryptic has finally managed to develop them into this awesome DPS, super maneuverable, destructive machine. The answer isn't to nerf tac/escorts although that would be an easy way to start to balance things out. We do that and many players will have a significantly diminished enjoyment of the game. The answer lies with the Cruisers and Sci ships.

I find it amusing when I read posts that explain how real life naval ships, and canon descriptions, are meant to justify an unbalanced gaming situation. We can rationalize all we want but the end result is that there is a significant amount of dissatisfaction in game balance. As in most MMOs there are essentially three types of ships/classes. These distinct classes are supposed to establish equitable gaming enjoyment for the player community. Each class needs it's own, unique defined role and structure that clearly differentiates it from the others so one doesn't feel like a weak step child of another, but rather contributes in it's own valuable and fun manner.

It has already been clearly established in a number of forum posts that besides being the heavy damage dealers, escorts have a disproportionate tankability or survivability given its main role. There are several ways to deal with this. Since Cruisers are meant to be THE tank for all practicable purposes (yes healer too), make them more tankable. This can be done, again as mentioned in many posts to date, by giving them, for example, a higher shield modifier, increased threat control abilities (pve), boosted skills that deal with healing/damage mitigation above and beyond that which an escort has. In other words and just as an example, TT is a wonderful skill but when everyone has it or has it with the same efficacy then it doesn't help a tank differentiate itself in damage mitigation. I bet that if you give cruisers a more meaningful tanking role you will even hear less complaints about the sorely lacking turn rates.

While we're at it let's take a look at the issue of turn rates. I'm a big proponent of increased turn rates for cruisers. They fly like a brick and it's difficult to maintain full broadside against a skilled opponent (pve but mostly pvp). And why do we cruiser captains hate this? One reason is because our already meager dps from beam arrays are even less effective because we can only get half of them on target. But if you make cruiser dps less important, because they can draw more aggro and tank better, this becomes less of an issue. While there will always be cruiser captains that want to be dps machines, they can still make builds to maximize cruiser dps but shouldn't be able to complain about challenging the dps effectiveness viz a viz escorts because of the clearly defined roles.

Although I have a VA Sci captain, I will be the first to admit my limitations in knowing how to play an effective role here. Also, I understand from a Borticus posting sci will undergo a revamp 'soon', which I hope will deal with sci's specific role similar to the way I tried to clarify that of cruisers.

I'm not trying to take up the old arguments that escorts are too strong or cruisers too weak. Just trying to get people to see that its the lack of clearly defined class roles that is contributing to all the angst. Flame me if you want and feel free to pick apart my arguments, but please keep in mind that I'm not offering definitive specific solutions, but a different way of looking at this long fought over battle. Not that this hasn't been mentioned before, but I don't think the focus has remained on mmo classic roles.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=400461
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,118
# 24
09-28-2012, 07:28 AM
There is so much ignorance in this thread it is sad.

Cruisers need more firepower? But wait, only eng cruisers, all these tac cruisers don't count. WTF? Does this make any sense at all?

Escorts need a negative shield modifier? They already have one

Cruisers are the backbone of the fleet, escorts are the teeth, science ships are the hands. If you want to do damage then flying as an eng in a cruiser isn't going to happen, it isn't supposed to ever, give up on the idea.

Cruisers are versatile, agro stealing tanks, they provide good SUPPORT level damage, extreme durability and healing skills. They can zone control.

An escort causes damage and takes damage, there is little to no utility. It is a warship, fast, manoeuvrable, meant to kill. Its heals are limited, its ability to control is minimal, they sacrifice ability for damage, its the design.

The reason you complain is the STO content is way too heavily damage based. If we had 3 STFs that were like Starbase Blockade then nobody would be flying escorts, as cruisers are completely op in that mission. Draw agro, support and heal freighters, escorts have to shoot their way out of a healing situation.. most fail.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 103
# 25
09-28-2012, 08:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicha0 View Post
There is so much ignorance in this thread

If we had 3 STFs that were like Starbase Blockade then nobody would be flying escorts, as cruisers are completely op in that mission. Draw agro, support and heal freighters, escorts have to shoot their way out of a healing situation.. most fail.

Please no more base alert missions, and those are not STF those are boring repetitive missions that i dont even bother doing anymore, and i dont know which escorts are you playing with but i go there in my defiant and is a completly blody NPC scorn.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=88638226000&dateline=  1340395851
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,051
# 26
09-28-2012, 08:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by angrytarg View Post
I don't get why on earth this game has to be "blanced" with 1on1 encounters in mind, because B'rel pilots want to

battle an Galaxy Class in a "fair fight" - THIS WOULDN'T BE A "FAIR FIGHT". A small vessel would need assistance, a cruiser in battle would need

escorts and so on. So, when they finally went all the way to P2W county every hope was lost. New ships will always be better so people will buy

them, period.
In my experience the devs just watched ST:7 and thought that Cruisers should be as weak as the Enterprise in that Battle. WHICH WAS THE LAMEST BATTLE IN HUMAN HISTORY
(Sorry for the caps but i really hate that stupid battle.)

But you're right, a Cruiser vs Escort fight shouldn't be "balanced" for 1 vs 1. It should need at least 3 escorts and a good amount of teamplay to bring down a cruiser. If the game would be balanced like that, it would be the only instance i would accept that cruisers have so little firepower.
(curiously the devs want to have teamplay, but not when it comes to "their" beloved escorts.)
So escorts would be team oriented ships, while Cruisers would become the preferred ship for solo players.
A Cruiser should pose a real thread to a single escort.
Instead the best thing a crusier can do is to "tickle" the escort to death.
This is NOT how big ships in Star trek are fighting!
As others have already stated the only ship class one needs to fly is a escort, because they can do virtually anything other ships can do, just better.

And since we won't get that, i think cruisers should get a lot more firepower.
A much higher energy output, Heavy Beam Arrays, more maneuverability, more tac consoles, additional Tactical BOFF stations, these that are good ideas, when done right.
But the devs aren't interested in it and i heavily doubt they are reading and (most notably) considering anything we are going to suggest here. Just look at the more turnrate to cruisers and the Galaxy Joke thread, no dev has ever answerd and said "sorry we weren't aware this is a problem, we'll do what we can". No, of course not. They don't even pretend to do something about it, they just ignore everyone who has a different opinion.
They aren't interested in creating a game that is balanced in the first place.
And in order to do that, they have to create imbalances so people will buy the next better ship in the Z- store. So there will always be a imbalance in the game.
This wouldn't be a big problem if the devs would keep that imbalance to smaller degree.

In my opinion this is just a part of the problem. The real problem is that the devs have a totally wrong understanding of Star Trek ships and how they work and how they are related to each other, when it comes to their combat power. I have explained this numerous times and other people too, just look at the Galaxy Joke or cruiser turnrate thread, because i am tired to explain the same things over and over again.
In my understanding the devs don't have any sense for Star Trek at all, they want small ships zipping around doing dogfights and attacking big huge and unmaneuverable ships that don't really pose a threat for them, people wearing Heavy armor with grenades attached to it, people carrying huge miniguns, Mohawks, and so on. They really should have created their own Sci Fi universe instead of raping the Star Trek universe.

The devs have choosen their favourite ship class, it is almost miserable. Even the Character selection screen has a Defiant bridge in the background.




Quote:
Originally Posted by nicha0 View Post
There is so much ignorance in this thread it is sad.

...

An escort causes damage and takes damage, there is little to no utility. It is a warship, fast, manoeuvrable, meant to kill. Its heals are limited, its ability to control is minimal, they sacrifice ability for damage, its the design.
Yeah, ignorance, i can see that....

Escorts have no utility... wait a moment what utility are you talking about?
This game is all about damage, there are NO missions about colonization, or other typical Star trek missions we saw in the shows. Escorts rule this game if you fly one if you don't see that, i would suggest, that you should grab a Galaxy -R and do the same things you do with your escort for a couple of weeks.

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-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-

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Last edited by yreodred; 09-28-2012 at 08:22 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,546
# 27
09-28-2012, 08:54 AM
Are we focusing on PvP or PvE? What the players wants to do with their ship matters in the conversation. From my point of view, if you PvP then the ship needs to win in which case the best is all that matters and personal preference of ship details (looks, type, etc.) takes a back seat. If you PvE then the ship needs to be playable (and that?s a very broadly used term).

In other words, Cryptic has an interesting model for game design and it?s seen among other games they started. If Cruisers are ?tanks? then they are intentionally designed for low(er) damage output than ?blasters? ? the Escorts. Science is a support role ? ?controllers?. None of these should be able to do it all by themselves, but be functional part of a unit. That?s one goal of MMOs (I think), to bring players together to share an experience through teamwork. As a Cruiser-player, if I?m going into a situation I can?t handle solo as easily as I want or need, then I better recruit some help.

BUT, for the soloer, each type should be able to play the game with varying degrees of challenges relative to their strengths and weaknesses ? in PvE. So, if a Cruiser was designed with lower damage output, then it makes sense they fight the battle longer ? but they can still fight the fight. Same for all the other ships; each must be played differently ? and that?s the challenge I see in STO.

Balance suggests making each equal to another and that is a desire of the player who wants to use the ship they prefer regardless of their strengths and weaknesses. If that were the case then there would not be a ?tank? needed because it wouldn?t matter ? they are all balanced (equal?) to each other. I seriously doubt the devs would balance the ships because it would change the model of gameplay.

SO I suggest that any vessel can do what the player wants it to do, but it will depend on how the ship is made (not inherent construction) by the player, the Captain/BOfs/DOff skills and abilities in-game and the players skills for the game.
Kathryn S. Beringer - The Dawn Patrol

Solaris build - Veritatum Liquido Cernene
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 159
# 28
09-28-2012, 08:56 AM
The only ship in the game i see that is geared towrds it strength is escorts. And probably cause it is easiest to do so.

Cruisers captained by engineers, leveled for threat and surviving are unbelievable ships. Cruisers have the abilty to put constant pressure on a traget while staying alive.

And dont say escorts can tank. They cant. Being geared enough to take out a cube isnt tanking. And there is a whole lotta flyin away to do that. A cruiser geared to its strength can easily tank a tac cube. My bro's oddy tanks the scimitar in khittomer like a boss.

Sci vessels are support. Gear for it. Every mmo has it. I wanna see sci's healing and shutting down the tragets systems.

The imbalance in the game is when everyone tries to be the dd. no mmo exists like this.

If you an eng and in a cruiser be the tank. Be the guy that gets the cubes attention so the escorts can keep up pressure without being blown to bits.

If your a sci in a sci vessel. Heal the tank. Debuff the target. Make the party stronger.

PvP is different but every cruiser needs an escort buddy. And every escort needs a cruiser buddy.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 176
# 29
09-28-2012, 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacenjacen24 View Post
And dont say escorts can tank. They cant. Being geared enough to take out a cube isnt tanking. And there is a whole lotta flyin away to do that. A cruiser geared to its strength can easily tank a tac cube. My bro's oddy tanks the scimitar in khittomer like a boss.
I'm afraid I'll have to respectfully disagree with you while not as tanky as cruisers they're still pretty damn tough.

Defense tanking is easy for an escort and not getting hit is always better than getting hit(just flying at full impulse gives me a defense of 80%, that's about 50% of PVE damage just never touching me). Combined with decent heals, 40% shield resist(easy to get) and the ultimate damage mitigation(the other guy dying) any teir 5 escort(especially the Armitage and Jem'hadar bug) can tank just about any PVE encounter that a cruiser can tank.

Last edited by razellis; 09-28-2012 at 10:12 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 622
# 30
09-28-2012, 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kattarn View Post
Please no more base alert missions, and those are not STF those are boring repetitive missions that i dont even bother doing anymore, and i dont know which escorts are you playing with but i go there in my defiant and is a completly blody NPC scorn.
Just an off topic, question for you, I love the ship in you signature, can you tell me what class it is?



Back on topic, I can tank really really in pve and pvp but in pvp nothing, with my sovy i have added two or sometimes 3x phaser relays or tried torpedo consoles, had my weapons power at full, 125, torpedo spread or beam FAW. Nothing, normally run 6x phaser beams and 2x q-torpedo tubes, just did pvp this time used photon since they have the highest DPS for torpdeos and still nothing sometimes shields go down but there hull stays high or the other way round.
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